Well then it’s good it got clarified because that was never the situation. In
fact quite the contrary as is true in many families with huge systemic traumas
the lines of communication are often badly broken. He doesn’t know why she
isn’t talking to him or what he allegedly did to upset her—and she is refusing
to tell anyone—even her mother whom the daughter claims is a saint!
The issue was that she was furious with dad. And the fury directed at dad broke
through his protective layer and he found those buried feelings and all I was
asking about was whether or not to use this topic with a group of newcomers. A
couple of you got it but alas I guess I wasn’t clear. The good news is that it
stimulated a great deal of discussion on a very touchy topic, And one we in the
allegedly civilized world don’t want to admit exists.
Liz Jelinek, PhD
On Jun 7, 2017, at 9:20 PM, Laure Porché laure.porche@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Liz, I was also confused by your original post: if he hasn't shared his
feelings with his daughter, why is she furious with him? I thought it was a
result of him saying it to her. I think that's what Logan was responding to.
Blessings,
Laure
On Jun 7, 2017 19:21, "Liz Jelinek lizjelinek@xxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:lizjelinek@xxxxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]"
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
My goodness Logan, the transcript I shared was from the workshop on Trauma
given by one of the earliest facilitators who studied directly with Hellinger
in the early days. Berthold was also one of my earliest teachers as most of
my training f was in Germany and other parts of Europe. So this transcript is
NOT to be confused with a conversation a real father has with his real
daughter, but rather was transcribed from a constellation that Berthold
Ulsamer set up for one of the attendees at the two part training—a week in
December followed by a week in May. This may not even have been an actual
piece of personal work that someone asked to do but it could very well have
been a demonstration of how to handle a difficult situation in a
constellations setting—we were facilitators seeking advanced training in
trauma from him.
No one is inferring, and certainly not me, that I have my client say these
things to his real daughter! You’re quite right that would be a violation.
But if these difficult topics cannot be addressed using representatives to
gain insight into what might have taken place or to reconcile the situation
which is what happens in the post of Berthold’s work. In the same manner as
we would return mother’s fate to her, the person to whom it rightfully
belongs, so the father admitted his feelings, and that he also had feelings
towards his mother, but he separated and said to daughter—I leave you with
what is yours and I take with me what is mine {in this case the sexual
attraction} and thereby reconciles the guilt—whether the guilt is over an
actual event or merely the guilty thoughts.
Liz Jelinek, PhD
On Jun 7, 2017, at 6:48 PM, Logan Sparks sparksrl@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:sparksrl@xxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hello,
My name is Logan. I am a facilitator in Albuquerque, NM (and also very
mobile). I know many of you in this group. So it is nice to see your names
and comments popping up in my inbox.
If you don't mind me jumping on in this thread, I noticed that it seemed
that the father, in this case, admitted his feelings of sexual attraction
towards his daugher, verbally. After that, it seems, there was a discussion
about whether he commited any violations of his daughter after that, that he
may not consciously remember.
To be frank, telling your child that you desire her sexually is already a
violation. The daughter stepping away would be a very natural response.
In systemic work, I feel that we are used to high levels of disclosure and
maybe we don't always think about these elements of what is best kept silet,
and out of the field of a child who cannot and should not carry the burden
of a parent's sexuality. Hellinger has said that often it is best for a
person who has cheated to keep the guilt to him or herself rather than
telling the partner. The reason being that this puts systemic pressure on
the non-cheating partner as they must then respond, forgive, etc...thus
somehow placing responsibility with them, rather than where responsibility
rests.
This is not meant to at all be crtical of the wonderful work being done in
this case (most likely the situation was previous to the constellatino, I am
guessing) but just something important that I want to share. I have seen
this dynamic a few times, and there is also a value for non-disclosure as a
way of respecting the place of a child in the system.
In much of the constellation work I have done, and seen others do, I am very
aware that many people still do not fully see the child int he child's
place, something particularly rife in western culture and in the U.S. where
children are often sexualized. I have seen that facilitators, for example,
helping me to work with my parents, unconsciously seem to think that, as a
child, my representative should be doing the right things in order to make
the parents love him. With others it is the same. There is a pressure for
the child to surrender to the parents etc...in a way that sort of assumes
that I am increasingly seeing how not engaging in this way leads to
resolutions that may be slower, but go deeper, with the child finding his or
her place more naturally and truly in healthy order, rather than holding a
tense space on behalf of a client and a group of adults that have been
gathered together to fix something.
Guarind this sacred child-space seems to work real miracles.
Thank you,
Logan
