Thank you Bruce, that's what I remembered but couldn't articulate in my
first response. Very helpful.
Much love,
Late
On Jun 7, 2017 21:50, "Bruce Nayowith bnayowith@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk]" <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Dear List,
Hi. I am not going to respond to this thread in general, but did want to
offer the notes I took from the workshop that Liz, Laure, and I were at
facilitated by Berthold Ulsamer.
[As you will see, actually, the resolution in the demonstration was NOT
about the father admitting anything to the daughter at all. Every time he
tried that, it did not sit well.
This supports what Logan shared.]
I tend to ‘take dictation’ when I take notes, so these should be nearly
verbatim, and clarify some confusion that was shared earlier.
Someone asked Berthold:
“What can a father say to a teen daughter, who is becoming a woman?”
Berthold: “Let’s set this up, and try different sentences, to see what
might work…
We could do father-daughter, or mother-son…
How to contain that they are becoming sexual…”
“Here we are seeking words, but it may be an inner attitude, not behavior…
Big, and small, are inner attitudes”
Then, we set up reps for father and daughter, and tried a few things.
1st: “I am your father
And you are my child.
And, you are my daughter, and becoming a woman.
And you look beautiful”
That did *not *work.
When the father felt uncomfortable, the daughter did, too, around her
budding sexuality, attraction.
"So, let’s try this
2nd: I am your father
Sometimes I forget that I am your father.
And, the man in me finds you attractive.
And, I am still your father”
That did NOT work, just as icky for daughter.
Then, 3rd: "I am your father
And, sometimes the man in me finds you attractive
And I carry this.
And, you are only the child”
That was no better!
4th “You are now 14 years old
And sometimes I forget that you are my daughter.
And I find you attractive”
Nope….
All of these felt really wrong to the daughter.
Then, it started to become clear.
“Ok. Father, turn around, and face your family of origin.
Feel what comes up for you….
"And say ‘you are my mother
And I am the child
You are big, and I am small….
And, I leave to you what belongs to you…”
THAT felt good to both father and daughter.
The daughter reported
“When my father turned back to face his family, that felt good.
And, it felt like he’s my dad”
When the father turned to face his daughter, he DID NOT NEED TO SAY
ANYTHING.
His energy had shifted, and this was not an issue.
Then Berthold sai:
“Yes. We tried to find the right sentences. But it was not about sentences.
What was needed was for the father was the right attitude, place,
relationship to our systems.
It was not about right words. It was about can someone CONTAIN their
sexuality.
Doing this constellation and turning to family of origin helped the father
to do so….”
This was a remarkable demonstration about the shift in energy, and how it
was not about finding right words when the energetic
alignment/orientation/resolution
with family of origin was not in its right place.
Hope this is useful, at least in clearing up this part of the question.
Best wishes,
Bruce
------------------------------
Liz wrote:
No one is inferring, and certainly not me, that I have my client say these
things to his real daughter! You’re quite right that would be a violation.
But if these difficult topics cannot be addressed using representatives to
gain insight into what might have taken place or to reconcile the situation
which is what happens in the post of Berthold’s work. In the same manner as
we would return mother’s fate to her, the person to whom it rightfully
belongs, so the father admitted his feelings, and that he also had feelings
towards his mother, but he separated and said to daughter—I leave you with
what is yours and I take with me what is mine {in this case the sexual
attraction} and thereby reconciles the guilt—whether the guilt is over an
actual event or merely the guilty thoughts.
Liz Jelinek, PhD
On Jun 7, 2017, at 6:48 PM, Logan Sparks sparksrl@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@ yahoogroups.com
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hello,
My name is Logan. I am a facilitator in Albuquerque, NM (and also very
mobile). I know many of you in this group. So it is nice to see your names
and comments popping up in my inbox.
If you don't mind me jumping on in this thread, I noticed that it seemed
that the father, in this case, admitted his feelings of sexual attraction
towards his daugher, verbally. After that, it seems, there was a discussion
about whether he commited any violations of his daughter after that, that
he may not consciously remember.
To be frank, telling your child that you desire her sexually is already a
violation. The daughter stepping away would be a very natural response.
In systemic work, I feel that we are used to high levels of disclosure and
maybe we don't always think about these elements of what is best kept
silet, and out of the field of a child who cannot and should not carry the
burden of a parent's sexuality. Hellinger has said that often it is best
for a person who has cheated to keep the guilt to him or herself rather
than telling the partner. The reason being that this puts systemic pressure
on the non-cheating partner as they must then respond, forgive, etc...thus
somehow placing responsibility with them, rather than where responsibility
rests.
This is not meant to at all be crtical of the wonderful work being done in
this case (most likely the situation was previous to the constellatino, I
am guessing) but just something important that I want to share. I have seen
this dynamic a few times, and there is also a value for non-disclosure as a
way of respecting the place of a child in the system.
In much of the constellation work I have done, and seen others do, I am
very aware that many people still do not fully see the child int he child's
place, something particularly rife in western culture and in the U.S. where
children are often sexualized. I have seen that facilitators, for example,
helping me to work with my parents, unconsciously seem to think that, as a
child, my representative should be doing the right things in order to make
the parents love him. With others it is the same. There is a pressure for
the child to surrender to the parents etc...in a way that sort of assumes
that I am increasingly seeing how not engaging in this way leads to
resolutions that may be slower, but go deeper, with the child finding his
or her place more naturally and truly in healthy order, rather than holding
a tense space on behalf of a client and a group of adults that have been
gathered together to fix something.
Guarding this sacred child-space seems to work real miracles.
Thank you,
Logan
