Dear List, Hi. I am not going to respond to this thread in general,but did want
to offer the notes I took from the workshop that Liz, Laure, and Iwere at
facilitated by Berthold Ulsamer.
[As you will see, actually, the resolution in the demonstration was NOT about
the father admitting anything to the daughter at all. Every time he tried
that, it did not sit well.This supports what Logan shared.]
I tend to ‘take dictation’ when I take notes, so theseshould be nearly
verbatim, and clarify some confusion that was shared earlier. Someone asked
Berthold: “What can a father say to a teen daughter, who isbecoming a woman?”
Berthold: “Let’s set this up, and try differentsentences, to see what might
work…We could do father-daughter, or mother-son…
How to contain that they are becoming sexual…” “Here we are seeking words, but
it may be an innerattitude, not behavior…Big, and small, are inner attitudes”
Then, we set up reps for father and daughter, and tried afew things. 1st: “I am
your fatherAnd you are my child.And, you are my daughter, and becoming a
woman.And you look beautiful” That did not work.When the father felt
uncomfortable, the daughter did,too, around her budding sexuality, attraction.
"So, let’s try this2nd: I am your fatherSometimes I forget that I am your
father.And, the man in me finds you attractive.And, I am still your father”
That did NOT work, just as icky for daughter.
Then, 3rd: "I am your fatherAnd, sometimes the man in me finds you
attractiveAnd I carry this.And, you are only the child” That was no better! 4th
“You are now 14 years oldAnd sometimes I forget that you are my daughter.And I
find you attractive” Nope….All of these felt really wrong to the daughter.
Then, it started to become clear. “Ok. Father, turn around, and face your
family of origin.Feel what comes up for you…. "And say ‘you are my motherAnd I
am the childYou are big, and I am small….And, I leave to you what belongs to
you…” THAT felt good to both father and daughter.
The daughter reported “When my father turned back to face his family, that
feltgood.And, it felt like he’s my dad” When the father turned to face his
daughter, he DID NOTNEED TO SAY ANYTHING.His energy had shifted, and this was
not an issue. Then Berthold sai: “Yes. We tried to find the right sentences.
But it wasnot about sentences.What was needed was for the father was the right
attitude,place, relationship to our systems. It was not about right words. It
was about can someoneCONTAIN their sexuality. Doing this constellation and
turning to family of originhelped the father to do so….”
This was a remarkable demonstration about the shift inenergy, and how it was
not about finding right words when the
energeticalignment/orientation/resolution with family of origin was not in its
rightplace. Hope this is useful, at least in clearing up this part ofthe
question. Best wishes,
Bruce
Liz wrote:
No one is inferring, and certainly not me, that I have my client say these
things to his real daughter! You’re quite right that would be a violation. But
if these difficult topics cannot be addressed using representatives to gain
insight into what might have taken place or to reconcile the situation which is
what happens in the post of Berthold’s work. In the same manner as we would
return mother’s fate to her, the person to whom it rightfully belongs, so the
father admitted his feelings, and that he also had feelings towards his mother,
but he separated and said to daughter—I leave you with what is yours and I take
with me what is mine {in this case the sexual attraction} and thereby
reconciles the guilt—whether the guilt is over an actual event or merely the
guilty thoughts.
Liz Jelinek, PhD
On Jun 7, 2017, at 6:48 PM, Logan Sparks sparksrl@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@ yahoogroups.com> wrote:
Hello,
My name is Logan. I am a facilitator in Albuquerque, NM (and also very mobile).
I know many of you in this group. So it is nice to see your names and comments
popping up in my inbox.
If you don't mind me jumping on in this thread, I noticed that it seemed that
the father, in this case, admitted his feelings of sexual attraction towards
his daugher, verbally. After that, it seems, there was a discussion about
whether he commited any violations of his daughter after that, that he may not
consciously remember.
To be frank, telling your child that you desire her sexually is already a
violation. The daughter stepping away would be a very natural response.
In systemic work, I feel that we are used to high levels of disclosure and
maybe we don't always think about these elements of what is best kept silet,
and out of the field of a child who cannot and should not carry the burden of a
parent's sexuality. Hellinger has said that often it is best for a person who
has cheated to keep the guilt to him or herself rather than telling the
partner. The reason being that this puts systemic pressure on the non-cheating
partner as they must then respond, forgive, etc...thus somehow placing
responsibility with them, rather than where responsibility rests.
This is not meant to at all be crtical of the wonderful work being done in this
case (most likely the situation was previous to the constellatino, I am
guessing) but just something important that I want to share. I have seen this
dynamic a few times, and there is also a value for non-disclosure as a way of
respecting the place of a child in the system.
In much of the constellation work I have done, and seen others do, I am very
aware that many people still do not fully see the child int he child's place,
something particularly rife in western culture and in the U.S. where children
are often sexualized. I have seen that facilitators, for example, helping me to
work with my parents, unconsciously seem to think that, as a child, my
representative should be doing the right things in order to make the parents
love him. With others it is the same. There is a pressure for the child to
surrender to the parents etc...in a way that sort of assumes that I am
increasingly seeing how not engaging in this way leads to resolutions that may
be slower, but go deeper, with the child finding his or her place more
naturally and truly in healthy order, rather than holding a tense space on
behalf of a client and a group of adults that have been gathered together to
fix something.
Guarding this sacred child-space seems to work real miracles.
Thank you,
Logan
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