Will have to check out that book of Anngwn's
I was surpised how deepy I felt Ed Ticks vets jouney home work
at our last conference in San Deigo. I participated as a vet in that ritual
but was not a combat vet although I did serve in the infantry in peace time.
However my dad was in WWII and Vietnam
so maybe that's where the intensity of feeling was coming from...
Thanks for the insight
Harrison
________________________________
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> on
behalf of Dr Liz Jelinek lizjelinek@xxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Thursday, June 8, 2017 3:32 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Fwd: [ConstellationTalk] Dad aroused by daughter
I have the books at home and Anngwn's in Europe but she'll likely get back to
you before I can. But it's the book on systemic traumas. Amazing stuff that is
just NOT talked about. I'll be home around 7:30 Eastern and will do my best to
find it. By Sunday for sure.
It was such a burden for those young men and some women who didn't usually know
they carried it, sad.
Liz Jelinek, PhD
Begin forwarded message:
From: "Leslie Nipps lnipps@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:lnipps@xxxxxxxxx>
[ConstellationTalk]"
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Date: June 8, 2017 at 1:35:22 PM EDT
To: Constellation Talk
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Dad aroused by daughter
Reply-To:
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Liz or Anngwyn,
Could either of you say a bit more about this? I’ve been noodling in this
territory for a while as my father was on a minesweeper somewhere in the
Pacific (no idea where) when the bombs were dropped when he was 20 years old,
and get the gist of what you are saying, but would love to hear a bit more:
"Anngwyn's brilliant writings on soldiers in the South Pacific when the bomb
was dropped.”
Thanks!
The Rev. Leslie Nipps
Convivium Constellations - Founder, Practitioner & Trainer
“Trust as a Way of Life…”
www.conviviumconstellations.com<http://www.conviviumconstellations.com>
"Hasten to that which supports." - The I Ching
On Jun 8, 2017, at 8:58 AM, Dr Liz Jelinek
lizjelinek@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:lizjelinek@xxxxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
wrote:
And again thank you all for your rich feedback. As an expert in epigenetics
this stuff reaches beyond culture and is biologically transmitted across
generations. I have three clients now with PTSD two of whom never experienced
a trauma--the mother of one woman was a Holocaust survivor and thanks to
Anngwyn's brilliant writings on soldiers in the South Pacific when the bomb was
dropped I realized that her "hate" for her (Jewish) father, a soldier on that
fateful day, who was stationed I believe on Iwo Jima (can't remember the exact
island) could be traced to his systemic guilt.
She'd been in therapy her entire life, so crippled she never held a job. But
with constellations she has reconciled the traumas she carried from both sides.
The man I wrote about is finally willing to do the work. But I wonder if his
lustful feelings towards his daughter were a reaction to his father's sexuality.
We've certainly covered a lot here.
Liz Jelinek, PhD
On Jun 8, 2017, at 10:51 AM, Joshua Alexander
egomagickian@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:egomagickian@xxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
wrote:
Liz, thanks for bringing this up. The conversation generated has been very
useful to me.
Re your original question, "whether or not to use this topic with a group of
newcomers," I think that depends on two things: 1) you and the stance you are
able to hold with it, 2) how important you think it will be to have experienced
reps to cleanly and clearly hold the roles.
Re #1, I think this is where Leslie's comments were really great. If you feel
comfortable holding a topic like this for the group then great. It sounds like
you have a lot of training and experience and so have probably done a lot of
looking at your own system around this kind of topic as well as many others.
For facilitators who don't have that background, doing this kind of self-check
could be critical.
I do think it's important to be able to bring topics like this to groups and
hold them in nonjudgmental, matter-of-fact ways. It's exactly because there's
so much stigma around them that people want and need us (consciously or
otherwise) to offer spaces where sensitive topics can be dealt with
compassionately and effectively.
Thanks again for bringing this topic to this group.
Warmly,
Josh
On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 6:37 PM, Liz Jelinek
lizjelinek@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:lizjelinek@xxxxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
Well then it’s good it got clarified because that was never the situation. In
fact quite the contrary as is true in many families with huge systemic traumas
the lines of communication are often badly broken. He doesn’t know why she
isn’t talking to him or what he allegedly did to upset her—and she is refusing
to tell anyone—even her mother whom the daughter claims is a saint!
The issue was that she was furious with dad. And the fury directed at dad broke
through his protective layer and he found those buried feelings and all I was
asking about was whether or not to use this topic with a group of newcomers. A
couple of you got it but alas I guess I wasn’t clear. The good news is that it
stimulated a great deal of discussion on a very touchy topic, And one we in the
allegedly civilized world don’t want to admit exists.
Liz Jelinek, PhD
On Jun 7, 2017, at 9:20 PM, Laure Porché
laure.porche@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:laure.porche@xxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
wrote:
Hi Liz, I was also confused by your original post: if he hasn't shared his
feelings with his daughter, why is she furious with him? I thought it was a
result of him saying it to her. I think that's what Logan was responding to.
Blessings,
Laure
On Jun 7, 2017 19:21, "Liz Jelinek
lizjelinek@xxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:lizjelinek@xxxxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]"
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
wrote:
My goodness Logan, the transcript I shared was from the workshop on Trauma
given by one of the earliest facilitators who studied directly with Hellinger
in the early days. Berthold was also one of my earliest teachers as most of my
training f was in Germany and other parts of Europe. So this transcript is NOT
to be confused with a conversation a real father has with his real daughter,
but rather was transcribed from a constellation that Berthold Ulsamer set up
for one of the attendees at the two part training—a week in December followed
by a week in May. This may not even have been an actual piece of personal work
that someone asked to do but it could very well have been a demonstration of
how to handle a difficult situation in a constellations setting—we were
facilitators seeking advanced training in trauma from him.
No one is inferring, and certainly not me, that I have my client say these
things to his real daughter! You’re quite right that would be a violation. But
if these difficult topics cannot be addressed using representatives to gain
insight into what might have taken place or to reconcile the situation which is
what happens in the post of Berthold’s work. In the same manner as we would
return mother’s fate to her, the person to whom it rightfully belongs, so the
father admitted his feelings, and that he also had feelings towards his mother,
but he separated and said to daughter—I leave you with what is yours and I take
with me what is mine {in this case the sexual attraction} and thereby
reconciles the guilt—whether the guilt is over an actual event or merely the
guilty thoughts.
Liz Jelinek, PhD
On Jun 7, 2017, at 6:48 PM, Logan Sparks
sparksrl@xxxxxxxxx<mailto:sparksrl@xxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
wrote:
Hello,
My name is Logan. I am a facilitator in Albuquerque, NM (and also very mobile).
I know many of you in this group. So it is nice to see your names and comments
popping up in my inbox.
If you don't mind me jumping on in this thread, I noticed that it seemed that
the father, in this case, admitted his feelings of sexual attraction towards
his daugher, verbally. After that, it seems, there was a discussion about
whether he commited any violations of his daughter after that, that he may not
consciously remember.
To be frank, telling your child that you desire her sexually is already a
violation. The daughter stepping away would be a very natural response.
In systemic work, I feel that we are used to high levels of disclosure and
maybe we don't always think about these elements of what is best kept silet,
and out of the field of a child who cannot and should not carry the burden of a
parent's sexuality. Hellinger has said that often it is best for a person who
has cheated to keep the guilt to him or herself rather than telling the
partner. The reason being that this puts systemic pressure on the non-cheating
partner as they must then respond, forgive, etc...thus somehow placing
responsibility with them, rather than where responsibility rests.
This is not meant to at all be crtical of the wonderful work being done in this
case (most likely the situation was previous to the constellatino, I am
guessing) but just something important that I want to share. I have seen this
dynamic a few times, and there is also a value for non-disclosure as a way of
respecting the place of a child in the system.
In much of the constellation work I have done, and seen others do, I am very
aware that many people still do not fully see the child int he child's place,
something particularly rife in western culture and in the U.S. where children
are often sexualized. I have seen that facilitators, for example, helping me to
work with my parents, unconsciously seem to think that, as a child, my
representative should be doing the right things in order to make the parents
love him. With others it is the same. There is a pressure for the child to
surrender to the parents etc...in a way that sort of assumes that I am
increasingly seeing how not engaging in this way leads to resolutions that may
be slower, but go deeper, with the child finding his or her place more
naturally and truly in healthy order, rather than holding a tense space on
behalf of a client and a group of adults that have been gathered together to
fix something.
Guarind this sacred child-space seems to work real miracles.
Thank you,
Logan
