Thank you for this, Harrison. I found myself deeply moved at the San
Diego conference in just the few minutes when Ed Tick asked people, in a
plenary session, to stand if they were vets and then to stand in
widening circles of connection to vets. I'm the daughter of a WWII
veteran (although he never shipped out), the wife of a Vietnam era
veteran (who however was sent to Korea), and the sister-in-law of a
Green Beret who served in Vietnam. I also lived for six years in the
1970s in a US military community in W. Germany, and as I was growing up
I knew many of my parents' friends who had served in combat in WWII.
So when Ed Tick asked children and spouses of veterans to stand, I stood
- and was startled at this newly conscious identification of myself as a
daughter and wife of veterans. It opened my eyes in new ways to how
connected we all are to the people who fight on our behalf, helped me
feel the collective trauma both on my own behalf and as a facilitator,
and gave me new respect for my brother-in-law.
That particular book of Anngwyn's just moved up on my (all too long)
list of books I really need to read soon.
Deborah
On 6/9/2017 10:25 AM, Harrison Snow teambuilder@xxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] wrote:
Will have to check out that book of Anngwn's
I was surpised how deepy I felt Ed Ticks vets jouney home work
at our last conference in San Deigo. I participated as a vet in that
ritual
but was not a combat vet although I did serve in the infantry in peace
time.
However my dad was in WWII and Vietnam
so maybe that's where the intensity of feeling was coming from...
Thanks for the insight
Harrison
------------------------------------------------------------------------
*From:* ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of Dr Liz Jelinek
lizjelinek@xxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Sent:* Thursday, June 8, 2017 3:32 PM
*To:* ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* Fwd: [ConstellationTalk] Dad aroused by daughter
I have the books at home and Anngwn's in Europe but she'll likely get
back to you before I can. But it's the book on systemic traumas.
Amazing stuff that is just NOT talked about. I'll be home around 7:30
Eastern and will do my best to find it. By Sunday for sure.
It was such a burden for those young men and some women who didn't
usually know they carried it, sad.
Liz Jelinek, PhD
Begin forwarded message:
*From:* "Leslie Nipps lnipps@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:lnipps@xxxxxxxxx>
[ConstellationTalk]" <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
*Date:* June 8, 2017 at 1:35:22 PM EDT
*To:* Constellation Talk <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
*Subject:* *Re: [ConstellationTalk] Dad aroused by daughter*
*Reply-To:* ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Liz or Anngwyn,
Could either of you say a bit more about this? I’ve been noodling in
this territory for a while as my father was on a minesweeper
somewhere in the Pacific (no idea where) when the bombs were dropped
when he was 20 years old, and get the gist of what you are saying,
but would love to hear a bit more:
"Anngwyn's brilliant writings on soldiers in the South Pacific when
the bomb was dropped.”
Thanks!
The Rev. Leslie Nipps
Convivium Constellations - Founder, Practitioner & Trainer
“Trust as a Way of Life…”
www.conviviumconstellations.com <http://www.conviviumconstellations.com>
"Hasten to that which supports." - The I Ching
On Jun 8, 2017, at 8:58 AM, Dr Liz Jelinek lizjelinek@xxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:lizjelinek@xxxxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
And again thank you all for your rich feedback. As an expert in
epigenetics this stuff reaches beyond culture and is biologically
transmitted across generations. I have three clients now with PTSD
two of whom never experienced a trauma--the mother of one woman was
a Holocaust survivor and thanks to Anngwyn's brilliant writings on
soldiers in the South Pacific when the bomb was dropped I realized
that her "hate" for her (Jewish) father, a soldier on that fateful
day, who was stationed I believe on Iwo Jima (can't remember the
exact island) could be traced to his systemic guilt.
She'd been in therapy her entire life, so crippled she never held a
job. But with constellations she has reconciled the traumas she
carried from both sides.
The man I wrote about is finally willing to do the work. But I wonder
if his lustful feelings towards his daughter were a reaction to his
father's sexuality.
We've certainly covered a lot here.
Liz Jelinek, PhD
On Jun 8, 2017, at 10:51 AM, Joshua Alexander egomagickian@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:egomagickian@xxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Liz, thanks for bringing this up. The conversation generated has
been very useful to me.
Re your original question, "whether or not to use this topic with a
group of newcomers," I think that depends on two things: 1) you and
the stance you are able to hold with it, 2) how important you think
it will be to have experienced reps to cleanly and clearly hold the
roles.
Re #1, I think this is where Leslie's comments were really great. If
you feel comfortable holding a topic like this for the group then
great. It sounds like you have a lot of training and experience and
so have probably done a lot of looking at your own system around
this kind of topic as well as many others. For facilitators who
don't have that background, doing this kind of self-check could be
critical.
I do think it's important to be able to bring topics like this to
groups and hold them in nonjudgmental, matter-of-fact ways. It's
exactly because there's so much stigma around them that people want
and need us (consciously or otherwise) to offer spaces where
sensitive topics can be dealt with compassionately and effectively.
Thanks again for bringing this topic to this group.
Warmly,
Josh
On Wed, Jun 7, 2017 6:37 PM, Liz Jelinek lizjelinek@xxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:lizjelinek@xxxxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Well then it’s good it got clarified because that was never the
situation. In fact quite the contrary as is true in many
families with huge systemic traumas the lines of communication
are often badly broken. He doesn’t know why she isn’t talking to
him or what he allegedly did to upset her—and she is refusing to
tell anyone—even her mother whom the daughter claims is a saint!
The issue was that she was furious with dad. And the fury
directed at dad broke through his protective layer and he found
those buried feelings and all I was asking about was whether or
not to use this topic with a group of newcomers. A couple of you
got it but alas I guess I wasn’t clear. The good news is that it
stimulated a great deal of discussion on a very touchy topic,
And one we in the allegedly civilized world don’t want to admit
exists.
Liz Jelinek, PhD
On Jun 7, 2017, at 9:20 PM, Laure Porché laure.porche@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:laure.porche@xxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi Liz, I was also confused by your original post: if he hasn't
shared his feelings with his daughter, why is she furious with
him? I thought it was a result of him saying it to her. I think
that's what Logan was responding to.
Blessings,
Laure
On Jun 7, 2017 19:21, "Liz Jelineklizjelinek@xxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:lizjelinek@xxxxxxxxxxx>[ConstellationTalk]"
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
My goodness Logan, the transcript I shared was from the
workshop on Trauma given by one of the earliest
facilitators who studied directly with Hellinger in the
early days. Berthold was also one of my earliest teachers
as most of my training f was in Germany and other parts of
Europe. So this transcript is NOT to be confused with a
conversation a real father has with his real daughter, but
rather was transcribed from a constellation that Berthold
Ulsamer set up for one of the attendees at the two part
training—a week in December followed by a week in May.
This may not even have been an actual piece of personal
work that someone asked to do but it could very well have
been a demonstration of how to handle a difficult situation
in a constellations setting—we were facilitators seeking
advanced training in trauma from him.
No one is inferring, and certainly not me, that I have my
client say these things to his real daughter! You’re quite
right that would be a violation. But if these difficult
topics cannot be addressed using representatives to gain
insight into what might have taken place or to reconcile
the situation which is what happens in the post of
Berthold’s work. In the same manner as we would return
mother’s fate to her, the person to whom it rightfully
belongs, so the father admitted his feelings, and that he
also had feelings towards his mother, but he separated and
said to daughter—I leave you with what is yours and I take
with me what is mine {in this case the sexual attraction}
and thereby reconciles the guilt—whether the guilt is over
an actual event or merely the guilty thoughts.
Liz Jelinek, PhD
On Jun 7, 2017, at 6:48 PM, Logan Sparkssparksrl@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:sparksrl@xxxxxxxxx>[ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hello,
My name is Logan. I am a facilitator in Albuquerque, NM
(and also very mobile). I know many of you in this group.
So it is nice to see your names and comments popping up in
my inbox.
If you don't mind me jumping on in this thread, I noticed
that it seemed that the father, in this case, admitted his
feelings of sexual attraction towards his daugher,
verbally. After that, it seems, there was a discussion
about whether he commited any violations of his daughter
after that, that he may not consciously remember.
To be frank, telling your child that you desire her
sexually is already a violation. The daughter stepping
away would be a very natural response.
In systemic work, I feel that we are used to high levels
of disclosure and maybe we don't always think about these
elements of what is best kept silet, and out of the field
of a child who cannot and should not carry the burden of a
parent's sexuality. Hellinger has said that often it is
best for a person who has cheated to keep the guilt to him
or herself rather than telling the partner. The reason
being that this puts systemic pressure on the non-cheating
partner as they must then respond, forgive, etc...thus
somehow placing responsibility with them, rather than
where responsibility rests.
This is not meant to at all be crtical of the wonderful
work being done in this case (most likely the situation
was previous to the constellatino, I am guessing) but just
something important that I want to share. I have seen this
dynamic a few times, and there is also a value for
non-disclosure as a way of respecting the place of a child
in the system.
In much of the constellation work I have done, and seen
others do, I am very aware that many people still do not
fully see the child int he child's place, something
particularly rife in western culture and in the U.S. where
children are often sexualized. I have seen that
facilitators, for example, helping me to work with my
parents, unconsciously seem to think that, as a child, my
representative should be doing the right things in order
to make the parents love him. With others it is the same.
There is a pressure for the child to surrender to the
parents etc...in a way that sort of assumes that I am
increasingly seeing how not engaging in this way leads to
resolutions that may be slower, but go deeper, with the
child finding his or her place more naturally and truly in
healthy order, rather than holding a tense space on behalf
of a client and a group of adults that have been gathered
together to fix something.
Guarind this sacred child-space seems to work real miracles.
Thank you,
Logan
