Wow what a rich thread. My understanding of forgiveness being problematic
in Hellingers view is when children are forgiving their parents, my
understanding is that he objects to this because it puts children in the
parental or more powerful position and therefore out of order. When I hear
this being done I like to intervene with Hellingers perspective, my
experience is that this is a powerful intervention that takes time to
digest. Otherwise I encourage forgiveness and reconcilitation:)
the english definition I pull up is the intentional and voluntary process
by which a victim undergoes a change in feelings and attitude regarding an
offense, lets go of negative emotions such as vengefulness, with an
increased ability to wish the offender well. Sounds pretty good to me:)
Thinking deeply about forgiveness leads directly into victim, perpetrator
and guilt and innocence and conscience and belonging. I think Hellingers
discussion on these topics is masterful and worth rereading in loves hidden
symmetry. For me, forgiveness, or one could say the stance of openness to
what is, is a key move in embarking on the spiritual path. I could say
that Hellingers exposition on the dynamics behind forgiveness bridges the
unforgiveness of duality consciousness with non-duality or knits back
together the way we separate ourselves or how we separate drop wave and
ocean, which by the way Mary if there was no drop their would be no wave
nor ocean.
And I love what you say Johanna, "all done here and now, can forgiveness be
more complete than that?" I think you make Dan's point beautifully. And I
wonder for myself, how can I seamlessly be? What in me is unforgiven
and/or unforgiving? What conscience am I loyal to in each moment?
On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 10:56 PM, Joanna Malinowska
joanna@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Dan, Hi Everybody,
It is a very interesting conversation. I am not so quick into going into
statements and theories, but perhaps just two little thoughts.
Firstly, the word forgiveness. Like every word, especially big words, it
has different meaning to everybody. We all live in different worlds, the
worlds we created for ourselves with our interpretations of what is
happening here and now, before our eyes, not to mention future and past.
Forgiveness has different meaning to every single client. For those who
live very much in the current moment may mean nothing, they do not need to
forgive, as past is not here. For others, it may be very much the need to
make somebody guilty and responsible for the past. For others, it may be
not taking revenge on relatives of the offender. So it depends how it is
spoken and what it means in the current situation.
Secondly, the last words Dan written: "Such forgiveness is never complete
in life" I how you know, Dan, but if I give an example of what did happen
in one of my sessions not that long ago.
I had a client with severe eating disorder, a young woman who had been
hospitalized many times and treated for over ten years. She happened to be
sexually abused by a psychiatrist who treated her in the clinic when she
was a teenager.
I am a hypnotherapist and I usually facilitate Family Constellations in
hypnosis. It allows not only to create the opening for the change, as
Constellations do, but also to implement the change, even test it in the
future.
For trauma, I have an NLP technique for the client to leave the traumatic
event in the past. It becomes small and far away. Then I ask them to face
the perpetrators, leave their actions with them and take the power back.
The woman was shaking with hate when looking at the man, but was able to
leave the responsibility for his actions with him and "Take back from him
her power to make herself feel good or back". The she was quiet for a while
and said she to him "I forgive you". And I asked her "This is the past, is
it? He has to carry the responsibility for his action, this is a heavy
load, is it? Just have a good look. " And she said after a while "I feel
sorry for him. I feel compassion for him" .
All done here and now, can forgiveness be more complete than that?
Joanna
On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 12:32 PM, Leslie Nipps lnipps@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Thanks for this summary, Dan. Very useful. And your description of the
Sulha reminds me of the modern Restorative Justice movement here in the
United States, and of course the South African Reconciliation Process. All
three recognize that remorse/forgiveness is a manifestation of systemic
realities (that is, affects the whole community), and is not just an
exchange between two people or parties. I think that’s the tricky territory
we can run into when a representative feels the urge to forgive another in
a constellation. Complex! ;-)
The Rev. Leslie Nipps
NLP & Family Constellations Practititoner
“Trust as a Way of Life…”
leslie@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Jan 15, 2015, at 8:24 PM, 'Dan Booth Cohen, PhD'
danboothcohen@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Alison –
Thanks for raising such interesting questions. Thanks to our CT community
for such interesting responses!
Using the model of three dimensions of consciousness –
personal/ancestral/spiritual or drop/wave/ocean – to understand forgiveness
reveals important distinctions that can help facilitators navigate through
challenging Constellations.
On the third dimension, forgiveness is meaningless. This is the dimension
of consciousness that is beyond human scale. The dualities and polarities
of human relationships are all absorbed into the vast network of timeless
consciousness.
On the second dimension, forgiveness has its place as illustrated by
Alison’s original examples. In both, the dead are receiving the remorse of
the living and offering forgiveness in return. As Albrecht Mahr explained,
“As soon as the dead are remembered and their fates acknowledged, they are
able to withdraw and become guardians of the living, bestowing their
blessing and benevolence on them. In this way, even after decades, the
living and the dead can help to heal each other.”
On the first dimension, Hellinger’s caution against the living offering
forgiveness to each other is operative. Still, there are situations where
forgiveness is an effective instrument for restoring the balance in
relationships between individuals and families that have harmed each other.
The traditional Palestinian peacemaking process known as *Sulha* is used
to interrupt blood feuds that might otherwise escalate indefinitely. It has
its roots in early Semitic writings, Christian scriptures, and Islamic Arab
literature. *Sulha *is a community-based forgiveness process that
involves not only the offender and victim, but their immediate and extended
families, a council of trusted elders, and members of the
community-at-large. It integrates words and deeds. *Sulha *begins when
a traumatic event, such as murder, occurs in the community. The *Sulha *is
led by a group of respected elders each of whom is viewed as wise, fair,
honest, and trustworthy. The elders control the process, which sometimes
takes months to achieve a full resolution. Forgiveness within the context
of the *Sulha *requires that the offender publicly acknowledges their
guilt, expresses remorse, and offers meaningful (even if sometimes
symbolic) restitution. The grandparents, parents, and children in the
affected families come together for an elaborate public ceremony. In front
of the community, the victim’s family accepts the offer of reconciliation
and swears not to seek revenge. The ceremony ends with speeches, prayers,
handshakes, and a shared meal.
In modern cultures, forgiveness cannot be achieved with a simple apology
and its acceptance. When the acts that caused harm are irreversible, the
pathway to forgiveness places special demands on both sides. For the
perpetrators, or their descendants, forgiveness requires acknowledging
guilt, expressing sincere remorse, and offering a reasonable restitution.
For the victims and their descendants, forgiveness is an act of deep
compassion and humility that restores the sweetness of life to the living.
Forgiveness leaves the guilt with the perpetrator and frees the victims
from the desire for vengeance. It comes when perpetrators, victims, and
their descendants include each other as full members of the human
community. The fate of all individuals involved are accepted and
respected. Such forgiveness is never complete in life.
Dan
Dan Booth Cohen, PhD
*Free Monthly Consciousness Call
<http://hiddensolution.com/services/#freecall>*
*Immersion Program: See with Your Heart. Live Your Purpose. Love Your
Life <http://hiddensolution.com/training/>*
www.HiddenSolution.com <http://www.hiddensolution.com/>
781-718-7158
*From:* ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [
mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
*Sent:* Saturday, January 03, 2015 10:28 PM
*To:* ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* [ConstellationTalk] Forgiveness in Constellations
Hello Community,
Am wondering about "forgiveness" and how people experience it in
Constellations.
I am aware that there is a particular understanding from Hellinger
regarding forgiveness as it relates to Orders of Love and Balancing Giving
and Taking. However, I have also heard Constellation facilitators say "we
don't forgive". Again, I'm sure there was a particular context, but I would
love some clarity from people on the list.
It comes up for me because I recently heard two ancestral healing stories
that were guided by shamanic principles within an indigenous context in
which forgiveness played a significant role. In one case, it was a white
Australian who worked with an aboriginal healer. Through visions, she saw
their European ancestors, and a line of Aboriginal women and she
experienced a tremendous grief and sorrow and asked for forgiveness. She
experienced her apology being received and a profound sense of love. In
another experience, an American Vietnam Vet who felt "haunted" by a boy he
killed had an experience of working through visions and asking forgiveness
of the boy. The boy accepted, and again, a great flow of love was
experienced.
How does this view of forgiveness fit with Hellinger's insights?
*It is the courageous heart that loves. It is the loving heart that
heals.*
*alisonfornes.com <http://alisonfornes.com/>*
--
Joanna Malinowska
Clinical Hypnotherapist
www.myhypno.com.au
www.self-hypnosis.com.au
Mobile 0412 092 972
