I certainly endorse to that, Dan.
Zaquie C Meredith, S.Paulo, Brazil
From: "Dan Booth Cohen, PhD" <danboothcohen@xxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 09:28:17 -0000
To: <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: RE: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape
Hania and Chris -
Thanks for clarifying. I agree. The broader point is that women today may
carry the resonance of ancestors who did not have rights to say No.
-----Original Message-----
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Hania Moser
Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 6:16 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape
Hi Dan and All
It was very inspiring chain of posts about rape, thank you all contributing
to that.
I'd like to add something to Dan post about many children in family - I
agree that there were many painful cases when women couldn't say no to their
husbands (or even to any men in times of a social chaos), but please don't
conclude that 10 or more children in family are because of violation (and it
was pretty explicit said in your post:" I am presently in Ireland where in
past generations families would often have 8, 10 or more children.
Today's Irish women rarely have so many. Why? Because modern Irish women
have a say in the matter. In today's terms, a husband forcing himself on his
wife against her wishes is rape. In older times it was an entitlement, his
legal right. If you set up 4 generations of mothers behind your client, you
may very find they all felt sexually violated to some extent or the
other.").
Many children in family could be because of many reasons like high mortality
of children, in some cultures a perception of having many children as a high
social status (yes! in pre-Mao China having many children was a sign of
wealth and power in society) and a good perspective of being under care when
parents are old, lack of contraception, etc.
My great-grandmother was a traditional healer (with extensive knowledge
about how to not have many children) and happy in her marriage, although she
delivered 12 children, and only one child survived her death; the other
11 died during her life for different reasons but it would be sufficient to
mention only facts of three wars happening there (I WW, Polish-Soviet War
1918 - 20 and II WW - all with armies moving fort and back through these
lands).
Hope it would bring some balance to the topic of sexual life of married
women in past generations.
--
Hania Moser, M.Psych., Melbourne
*
Knowledge is learning something every day. Wisdom is learning of letting go
every day. Zen Proverb*
On 6 February 2012 14:45, Dan Booth Cohen, PhD
<danboothcohen@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:danboothcohen%40gmail.com> >wrote:
**the experiences of these ancestors.
Dear Patrick -
I have been reading this thread and the previous one about forgiveness
with great interest. It is wonderful for so many people to offer their
insights. Each has something to take from.
Allow me to share some of my views. Your statements are in "quotes"
followed by my responses.
"I have not dealt with rape before." Every Constellation presents me
with something I have not dealt with before. Behind the client's story
something is hidden. That is a given.
"Is my feeling right that the rapist becomes a member of the system?"
There is no pat answer. You can put in a representative for the rapist
and see what happens.
"I have a bit of fear to proceed, not wanting to cause any harm." Me too.
I consider that a healthy stance for the facilitator.
More generally, our modern definition of rape is quite different from
the traditional definition. Today, we take for granted that a woman
has a right to say No. I am presently in Ireland where in past
generations families would often have 8, 10 or more children. Today's
Irish women rarely have so many. Why? Because modern Irish women have
a say in the matter. In today's terms, a husband forcing himself on
his wife against her wishes is rape. In older times it was an
entitlement, his legal right. If you set up 4 generations of mothers
behind your client, you may very find they all felt sexually violated
to some extent or the other. Her present day feelings are influenced by
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
If I worked with such a case, my focus would not be so much on healing
her relationship with the rapist. It would be on establishing a strong
connection to the women in her maternal line, accepting the reality of
her life's experience, and freeing her to have a healthy and mutually
respectful sexual relationship with her partner.
Thanks to all for such a rich thread,
Dan
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Patrick McNally
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 1:40 PM<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape<mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com> "
Gary and All,
Reading Gary's beautiful explication of forgiveness below is timely
because I have a young woman (early 20's) who has asked for my help
regarding rape while she was in college.
I've not dealt with rape before, and while thinking how we might
proceed in an upcoming workshop, I feel she very much "blames"
the rapist for the devastating effects the experience has had on her
life. She's in a relationship, plans to marry and have children, and I
can only surmise that if left unresolved the rape will have bad
consequences for her children.
Is my feeling right that the rapist has become a member of her system,
or am I taking that too far? It's not murder, but the degree of
violation seems in her case to result in closeness between her and the
rapist, rejected by her, that must come to light.
I have a bit of fear to proceed, not wanting to cause any harm, and
also recognize that confronting my fear could open us up to a deep
experience in this field, if that's appropriate to her.
Wanting very much to help her, and appreciating any comments from the
group.
Patrick McNally
________________________________
From: "Gary@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com>
Gary%40CHIfield.com> ><ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
To: "ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com <mailto:
ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups.%20com> "
ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> >big,"
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 3:33 PM
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Transcending Forgiveness through
Acceptance by Gary Stuart
Transcending Forgiveness Through Acceptance
Today, many healers, seekers and therapists have jumped on a
dysfunctional bandwagon without realizing the systemic consequences at
hand. Bert Hellinger, renowned philosopher and developer of
Constellation work and Spirit-Mind movements, has reported for many,
many years that there is a hidden symmetry and order to love.
As a facilitator of this modality, I must concur that I find these
bold statements to be very true and will gladly help anyone explore
and understand the philosophy and reasoning behind them. As always,
let your heart decide what is right for you and your well-being.
Practicing the "Art of Forgiveness" can be very damaging to the
so-called "forgiver" on many levels. This act of superiority may not
serve their best interests no matter how well-intentioned. This
superior attitude that seeks to be bigger than a perpetrator or any
painful situation actually diminishes the effectiveness of release
that only acceptance can consciously bring about. The "forgiver'
actually perpetuates the pain of victimization in an unhealthful way
-- upon themselves and, unconsciously, upon others as well.
If the desired goal is to release oneself from pain and suffering in
order to heal a deep wound and move beyond an endured atrocity, the
very idea of "forgiveness" becomes detrimental to both the Forgiver
and the Forgiven. Systemically speaking, we would call this being "too
arrogant or presumptuous, as it robs the perpetrator ofheavier load of toxic baggage that enslaves them to the past.
responsibility, whether it was our parents or any other person who has
done us perceived "harm." It also disrespects the bigger fate and
destiny of our whole ancestral line. In doing so, the "forgiver"
attempts to elevate him or herself to the "top" of the whole
hierarchical system, as if he or she was the creator of life itself --
showing pity on these poor little subjects under his or her command.
In reality, the most recent addition to any larger family system has
no right to judge those who came before, as they are the newer members
in the larger hierarchical framework known as a family. Sure we all
have our opinions and feelings, and these are in no way meant to be
negated, but if anyone truly wants to break the cycle of
Perpetrator/Victim, "forgiveness" is NOT the way to do it. It is then
the Victim who carries both energies, thereby hurting themselves with a
tomorrow.
ReSOULution
There is a way out, however, that is more simple, profound and
completely healing, leading to a restoration of love, order and
harmony for all concerned. This liberating state of "non-forgiveness"
is simply called "ACCEPTANCE." Can we be small enough and humble
enough to acknowledge our place in the larger context of a
multidimensional generation of forebears from whence we inherited our
DNA? We received the Gift of Life through them despite their suffering
and turmoil. This dualistic condition in which we are living provides
wonder and horror equally. The key is to honor and accept life itself
AS IT IS. This action of accepting imperfection (even the living
dynamics of catastrophic change) will lead us back to our inner and
outer harmony, providing us with dignity and strength. These qualities
will only help us accept the gifts and challenges equally that life
continually seems to toss in our path. It is the ACCEPTANCE of
everything "as it is," from our families to our human history, that
releases us all from the chains of the past and points us toward a better
-- with them.
Just as the arrogance of "forgiveness" weakens us, the humility of
"acceptance" empowers us. It is ours to decide which feels best and
does the most good. Always remember, we did not create the cycle of
life. We are merely participants, and our day in the Sun lasts for a
very short time.
This is our chance to enjoy, transform and better ourselves and our
children, just as those who came before did for us, whether we know it
or not. Taking our rightful place as the smallest member of the family
system allows us to evolve into something great. Honor and gratitude,
along with ACCEPTANCE, breaks the cycle of slavery to which
Forgiveness binds us. Our ACCEPTANCE of life AS IT IS, along with
accepting our parents AS THEY ARE and our larger family system AS IT
WAS, relieves us of our self-appointed role as judge and jury. To
remain neutral without judgments also leads us to accept the good
things we inherited more deeply. By letting those who wronged or hurt
us own their own Perpetrator/Victim energy, we release ourselves from
the entanglement and let the fate and responsibility rest where it belongs
This isn't about blame or shaming others for the choices they made.
It is about honoring our own part in it and the acknowledgement that
with acceptance comes release. Life seems to be inherently good, as
everyone who shares life has always tried to follow his or her good
conscience to the best of their ability. Often such incidents occurred
in a place and time pre-dating your own creation and admission into
the family system -- and which, on the deepest of levels, was probably
agreed to all along. Accepting these simple truths will free you and
strengthen your resolve without any need to "FORGIVE." Bow Down in
thankfulness & gratitude as you ACCEPT your life as a Gift that was
Given.
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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
