Ah, you made me smile Patrick, in the good sense. I too experienced Bert's
sharp and deeply correct sayings. I love them all. The more you go deeper
and deeper reflecting his words you perceive that you are facing a Deep,
Ancient, incredible Kind Soul. So he is. He IS. Bert is Bert. Thank you
for sharing.
Zaquie C Meredith, São Paulo, Brazil
Www.zaquie.com
From: Patrick McNally <patrick@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Wed, 8 Feb 2012 05:05:50 -0800 (PST)
To: "ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx" <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape
Thank you Dan -
The kindness and support expressed so intelligently from you and all the
others touches me. It's an honor to be connected to all of you.
I live in Northern Virginia and attended two workshops with Bert Hellinger
in D.C. in 2005 and 2006. I remember some of what you refer to. In all of
these experiences, and as a kind of practice on my side, I expose myself
without initial judgment (but not without emotional reaction at times) to
what Bert might say and do, in particular in response to my direct questions
sitting next to him. On more than one occasion his response to what I
thought was a well intended and important question reduced my size and
weight to almost nothing. In Austria once I went to him with a question
about how we might, as facilitators, grow our workshops and succeed. He
looked straight into my eyes and said "You have no respect for business. I
do," then went into a lengthy monologue. I was shocked and felt myself
shrinking, like a cartoon character, wanting nothing but to run away and
hide. But I stayed and exposed myself completely to what he said, and you
know what: Bert was right. I had developed a habit of judging large
corporations and other business models and it had a bad effect on my life
and my businesses. I still struggle with that.
You might also remember in D.C. when a mother brought her adopted son to
Bert who had been molested by the grandfather (not clear if on the adopted
mother's side or the father's). The woman was adamant, and blamed this man
for her son's troubles. Bert simply replied "poor grandfather," and you
could feel a reaction go through the large hall as the mother gathered up
her son and their belongings and left post haste. Bert then said something
to us all like "Spirit-Mind is sometimes cruel," (or maybe I remember that a
bit incorrectly). Unlike a lot of people there, I meditated on his words
and concluded that Bert was speaking a truth: The issue went back further
than this grandfather, as he was a "victim" much as her son was (who knows
how far back it went). But for some it was too much: My wife and I to this
day disagree on this issue, she considering Bert's actions then abhorrent;
we just can't bring it up because it causes friction for us.
It's not always the case, but often remaining open to Bert Hellinger's
sometimes ostensibly inimical manner of expression has helped me understand
myself and others in unique ways.
It looks like a group is forming to attend my first workshop since 2010 on
February 18th. I will take your suggestions to heart, enter the field and
"do my best." The young woman who came to me with the issue of her rape
will, I believe, attend. I remain of the mind that she will be better
served by a woman facilitator, but maybe something will open up for her and
me that day that will guide a right movement.
From my Heart, All the best,
Patrick
________________________________
From: Chris Walsh <constellationflow@xxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:constellationflow%40yahoo.com.au> >
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 8, 2012 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape
Dear Dan,
The humility, flexibility and aplomb you display when gently "corrected" is
inspiring. Thankyou so much for your regular insightful contributions to
this forum.
Warmly
Chris Walsh
On Wed, Feb 8, 2012 at 11:58 AM, Dan Booth Cohen, PhD <
danboothcohen@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:danboothcohen%40gmail.com> > wrote:
**<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:
Hi Patrick
I read the many responses to your original post with fascination. In
responding, I inadvertently sowed confusion suggesting that women who had
many children were all coerced. Chris Walsh and Hania Moser gently pointed
out the folly of this assertion. It was actually the opposite of my
intended point, which is that a woman who is sexually assaulted today
stands at the front of a line of countless mothers and daughters who have
suffered traumas at the hands of men. Suggesting that rape means this or
that or is the result of this or that is simplistic. What helps in my
experience is to avoid commentary and analysis in favor of establishing
good contact with the love and support of these ancestors.
Your story of Bert Hellinger¹s Louisville training stirs me. I attended
his Washington DC workshop for cancer patients and the couples weekend the
following year. After one, there was a special training day for
facilitators which was legend. In retrospect, what I most strongly recall
from those events were the outrageous statements and actions. I suspect
other CT readers who were there share those memories.
If it were not for Hellinger, his brilliance and generosity, I would not
be a Family Constellations facilitator. It is my calling and passion. I am
deeply indebted to him for teaching me and offering me incredible gifts.
Many clients I sit with report their Constellation is a turning point in
their lives. I thank him with deep gratitude.
And, I have seen him do and say things that accumulated into such great
distaste that I could no longer tolerate to attend his events. This was all
before his divorce and re-marriage. I know quite a number people who fell
into a state of despair after their experiences with him. One, who he
called a murderer in front of a large audience, cried daily for years
afterwards.
We all cause harm in attempts to help. We all fail at times. There is no
avoiding that. Keep an open heart, a clear mind, a good intention. Be
fearless when courage is demanded and fearful when you wake in the night
and smell smoke. Good feedback from clients is an valid indicator of your
ability. Trust the field to support and guide you.
Dan
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Patrick McNally
Sent: Sunday, February 05, 2012 6:54 PM<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape<mailto:daniela.terrile%40ec.europa.eu>
Daniela and All,
Having begun this thread and read with interest and gratitude each
response, I'd like to share my impressions so far:
I'm pleased to have opened the conversation to be able to see clearly my
own immaturity as a facilitator, humbled by the deep insights, intelligence
and skill reflected in the responses. Having only facilitated a few
workshops and private sessions in the past three years, I am clearly not
ready to take on trauma of this nature and might do more harm that good.
It also seems clear that in this case a woman would best handle the issue,
not a man (at lease not me). Therefore, I intend to refer this young woman
to a local facilitator (a woman) who has much more experience and can
likely promote positive movement, maybe over several sessions as some have
suggested.
Although I often trust my intuitive nature, and have received very good
"feedback" from those attending my few workshops, there are severe limits.
I recall in Louisville when Bert Hellinger split us into groups to practice
facilitating, and the issue brought before me was a life threatening
cancer. It confused me terribly, and the constellation was in all respects
a failure. I felt awful about it. Then someone who was in that group asked
Hellinger if we could do harm, reflecting to me, and he said "yes." I fell
into a state of despair, but then went myself to Hellinger (all of this
before the larger group) and asked something to the effect "If we don't try
how are we to learn?" He was very kind, realizing my state of mind, and
offered up something contradictory to the idea that we must not go in a
direction of harm, but rather try. Of course we know that Bert responds to
the moment, not in generalizations, and that answer was specific to
me. Later he took on that same woman with cancer and her issue would not
move by the "Spirit-Mind" work he was teaching us, and he reverted to the
"Classic Constellation" approach which did have a good effect. For some
reason, that woman's issue was, in fact, confusing when taken on in the
ways of Hellinger's newer insights, at least then in 2007.
As for my fear, I'm open to ideas suggested that might help us as
facilitators deal with the various levels of fear that may arise. I'm still
ruminating why the fear came up for me in this case, and will continue to
look. For now I can let it go and refer appropriately.
My deepest thanks to all for your responses and time.
Patrick
________________________________
From: "daniela.terrile@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:daniela.terrile%40ec.europa.eu>
" <daniela.terrile@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:daniela.terrile%40ec.europa.eu><mailto:daniela.terrile%40ec.europa.eu> >
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:
ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2012 12:35 PM
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape
Hello Patrick,
I was participant and one time representant in the case of 2 or 3
constellations about rapts. And I made myself one constellation about this
kind of trauma.
What I can share about this experiences:
About the facts:
The main difficulty is that the parents were not protective enough or she
was herself in fault. And the anger against them or herself is, of course,
directed to the raptor...
Most of this cases are related to sexual abuse or other abuses. This make
it difficult too because the young/little girl can had love or sexual
emotions to her raptor.
She can have lost a part of herself during the facts (innocence, trust in
herself, a part of her soul...) and it is now necessary to retrieve her
integrity.
About your fears regarding the future: it seems, indeed, that women who
has been sexualy abused are anxious to be non-protective enough for their
own children. They become superprotective, and it is feeled by the children
as an abuse too.
But you can see to end with a perspective to her children: how to be when
they will grow...
About your fear to make a new trauma.
Look at her interrest first.
If you are not trusting yourself enough, send her to a colleague or to
your teacher.
Perhaps you can enjoy a supervision before to see her on this case:
perhaps you have to learn something about yourself and this kind of
experiences.
After that, or without that, if you feel that you can trust the
representants, go ahead with care... and trust the group and the helps
coming from the group and from the representants.
About the cares and the protection frame.
1. With one level of protection (in this case I should set up more
protections -see hereunder).
You can give her, sitting near her (someone like a nurse), during the
constellation. Someone who is responsible to protect her (like a good
mother, protecting her child).
This person has the responsability and the power to stop the constellation
each time it would be necessary, or definitively.
2. Sometimes this kind of trauma needs to organize a serie of protection
lines:
It takes a lot of time to install, but it is really helpfull to her to
feel the protection and the power of the persons empowered to stop the rapt
or the events.
In this case, you install one person helping her like a good mother, near
her (see above)
+ 1 one representing her on a chair (like normaly), but just before her,
sitting in the group (first level fo protection)
+ one level representing the representant of her...
so that she participates in a third or 4th level.
If necessary, only the protections are placed at the first time... and no
constellation.
And later, a constellation (with 1 or more protections again)
Each person representing her or helping her has the right to stop the
constellation or to intervene.
Only the representants know what is her feeling and if it is secure
enough, because she DON'T KNOW anything about security. And probably her
system also not.
Hoping it will help you to help her on one way or another !
Kind regards,
Marilyn
Marilyn Droog
Brussels
________________________________
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:<mailto:
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Patrick McNally<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 2:40 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com> <mailto:
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape
Gary and All,
Reading Gary's beautiful explication of forgiveness below is
timely because I have a young woman (early 20's)
who has asked for my help regarding rape while she was in college.
I've not dealt with rape before, and while thinking how we might
proceed in an upcoming workshop, I feel she very much "blames"
the rapist for the devastating effects the experience has had on her
life. She's in a relationship, plans to marry and have children, and
I can only surmise that if left unresolved the rape will have bad
consequences for her children.
Is my feeling right that the rapist has become a member of her
system, or am I taking that too far? It's not murder,
but the degree of violation seems in her case to result in closeness
between her and the rapist, rejected by her, that must come to
light.
I have a bit of fear to proceed, not wanting to cause any
harm, and also recognize that confronting my fear could
open us up to a deep experience in this field, if that's
appropriate to her.
Wanting very much to help her, and appreciating any
comments from the group.
Patrick McNally
________________________________
From: "Gary@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com>
Gary%40CHIfield.com> " <Gary@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com><mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com>
<mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com> ><mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:
To: "ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com <mailto:
ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups.%20com> " <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:
ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> >
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 3:33 PM
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Transcending Forgiveness through Acceptance
by Gary Stuart
Transcending Forgiveness Through Acceptance
Today, many healers, seekers and therapists have jumped on a
dysfunctional bandwagon without realizing the systemic consequences at
hand. Bert Hellinger, renowned philosopher and developer of
Constellation work and Spirit-Mind movements, has reported for many,
many years that there is a hidden symmetry and order to love.
As a facilitator of this modality, I must concur that I find these
bold statements to be very true and will gladly help anyone explore and
understand the philosophy and reasoning behind them. As always, let your
heart decide what is right for you and your well-being.
Practicing the "Art of Forgiveness" can be very damaging to the
so-called "forgiver" on many levels. This act of superiority may not
serve their best interests no matter how well-intentioned. This superior
attitude that seeks to be bigger than a perpetrator or any painful
situation actually diminishes the effectiveness of release that only
acceptance can consciously bring about. The "forgiver' actually
perpetuates the pain of victimization in an unhealthful way -- upon
themselves and, unconsciously, upon others as well.
If the desired goal is to release oneself from pain and suffering in
order to heal a deep wound and move beyond an endured atrocity, the very
idea of "forgiveness" becomes detrimental to both the Forgiver and the
Forgiven. Systemically speaking, we would call this being "too big,"
arrogant or presumptuous, as it robs the perpetrator of responsibility,
whether it was our parents or any other person who has done us perceived
"harm." It also disrespects the bigger fate and destiny of our whole
ancestral line. In doing so, the "forgiver" attempts to elevate him or
herself to the "top" of the whole hierarchical system, as if he or she
was the creator of life itself -- showing pity on these poor little
subjects under his or her command. In reality, the most recent addition
to any larger family system has no right to judge those who came before,
as they are the newer members in the larger hierarchical framework known
as a family. Sure we all have our opinions and feelings, and these are
in no way meant to be negated, but if anyone truly wants to break the
cycle of Perpetrator/Victim, "forgiveness" is NOT the way to do it. It
is then the Victim who carries both energies, thereby hurting themselves
with a heavier load of toxic baggage that enslaves them to the past.
ReSOULution
There is a way out, however, that is more simple, profound and
completely healing, leading to a restoration of love, order and harmony
for all concerned. This liberating state of "non-forgiveness" is simply
called "ACCEPTANCE." Can we be small enough and humble enough to
acknowledge our place in the larger context of a multidimensional
generation of forebears from whence we inherited our DNA? We received
the Gift of Life through them despite their suffering and turmoil. This
dualistic condition in which we are living provides wonder and horror
equally. The key is to honor and accept life itself AS IT IS. This
action of accepting imperfection (even the living dynamics of
catastrophic change) will lead us back to our inner and outer harmony,
providing us with dignity and strength. These qualities will only help
us accept the gifts and challenges equally that life continually seems
to toss in our path. It is the ACCEPTANCE of everything "as it is," from
our families to our human history, that releases us all from the chains
of the past and points us toward a better tomorrow.
Just as the arrogance of "forgiveness" weakens us, the humility of
"acceptance" empowers us. It is ours to decide which feels best and does
the most good. Always remember, we did not create the cycle of life. We
are merely participants, and our day in the Sun lasts for a very short
time.
This is our chance to enjoy, transform and better ourselves and our
children, just as those who came before did for us, whether we know it
or not. Taking our rightful place as the smallest member of the family
system allows us to evolve into something great. Honor and gratitude,
along with ACCEPTANCE, breaks the cycle of slavery to which Forgiveness
binds us. Our ACCEPTANCE of life AS IT IS, along with accepting our
parents AS THEY ARE and our larger family system AS IT WAS, relieves us
of our self-appointed role as judge and jury. To remain neutral without
judgments also leads us to accept the good things we inherited more
deeply. By letting those who wronged or hurt us own their own
Perpetrator/Victim energy, we release ourselves from the entanglement
and let the fate and responsibility rest where it belongs -- with them.
This isn't about blame or shaming others for the choices they made.
It is about honoring our own part in it and the acknowledgement that
with acceptance comes release. Life seems to be inherently good, as
everyone who shares life has always tried to follow his or her good
conscience to the best of their ability. Often such incidents occurred
in a place and time pre-dating your own creation and admission into the
family system -- and which, on the deepest of levels, was probably
agreed to all along. Accepting these simple truths will free you and
strengthen your resolve without any need to "FORGIVE." Bow Down in
thankfulness & gratitude as you ACCEPT your life as a Gift that was
Given.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
Marilyn Droog
Administrateur-Déléguée
Abunde s.c.r.l.
Expertise en systèmes complexesformateurs
Formations ciselées à la commande
Formations à la méthode CSE&O pour HRManagers, coachs, médiateurs,
www.abunde.com <http://www.abunde.com/>
rue de la Fauvette, 15 - 1180 Bruxelles
Tél : + 32 (0)2 375 89 31
Gsm : 0495 53 55 63
Entreprise : BE 0444921182
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
