Hello Irene,
OK here is some feedback. Perhaps you are new to our international
conversations here on the forum. That said, posts such as this presenting an
expectation that this new person should explain himself any further seems
inappropriate and less than helpful. As Bert Hellinger often asks " does your
curiosity in this case, strengthen or weaken"?
All for now,
Anngwyn St. Just Ph.D.
_http://anngwyn.wisrville.org_ ;(http://anngwyn.wisrville.org)
_www.acst-international.com_ (http://www.acst-international.com)
In a message dated 2/5/2012 6:08:18 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
toast_is_great@xxxxxxxxxxx writes:
Hi Patrick
what is coming up for me at first reading is my own questioning and
feelings around what is this lack of sense of self (your sense of your self)
about? What does that represent for or to you? How come do you believe you are
not the person to help this other person, what is that about?
Then, where would you place these things in a constellation circle, how
would you represent them to yourself and how would you garner meaning from
them?
The other thing that has caught my attention is why do you have to have a
constellation with this woman as a group work session to help her? Is there
any reason/s why you cant assist this woman understand her processes
within the safety of your counselling rooms using, say dolls to represent the
rapist and herself? Or in a subtler sense using soft toys to lessen the
immediate imact of revealing meanings?
Maybe I am right off track here so I would love feedback to help me
understand other ideas, as like you Patrick, I value feedback when delivered
in a
constructive manner.
cheers and looking forward to responses
Irene
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: patrick@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 10:54:09 -0800
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape
Daniela and All,
Having begun this thread and read with interest and gratitude each
response, I'd like to share my impressions so far:
I'm pleased to have opened the conversation to be able to see clearly my
own immaturity as a facilitator, humbled by the deep insights, intelligence
and skill reflected in the responses. Having only facilitated a few
workshops and private sessions in the past three years, I am clearly not ready
to
take on trauma of this nature and might do more harm that good.
It also seems clear that in this case a woman would best handle the issue,
not a man (at lease not me). Therefore, I intend to refer this young
woman to a local facilitator (a woman) who has much more experience and can
likely promote positive movement, maybe over several sessions as some have
suggested.
Although I often trust my intuitive nature, and have received very good
"feedback" from those attending my few workshops, there are severe limits. I
recall in Louisville when Bert Hellinger split us into groups to practice
facilitating, and the issue brought before me was a life threatening
cancer. It confused me terribly, and the constellation was in all respects a
failure. I felt awful about it. Then someone who was in that group asked
Hellinger if we could do harm, reflecting to me, and he said "yes." I fell
into a state of despair, but then went myself to Hellinger (all of this
before the larger group) and asked something to the effect "If we don't try
how
are we to learn?" He was very kind, realizing my state of mind, and
offered up something contradictory to the idea that we must not go in a
direction
of harm, but rather try. Of course we know that Bert responds to the
moment, not in generalizations, and that answer was specific to
me. Later he took on that same woman with cancer and her issue would not
move by the "Spirit-Mind" work he was teaching us, and he reverted to the
"Classic Constellation" approach which did have a good effect. For some
reason, that woman's issue was, in fact, confusing when taken on in the ways
of Hellinger's newer insights, at least then in 2007.
As for my fear, I'm open to ideas suggested that might help us as
facilitators deal with the various levels of fear that may arise. I'm still
ruminating why the fear came up for me in this case, and will continue to
look.
For now I can let it go and refer appropriately.
My deepest thanks to all for your responses and time.
Patrick
________________________________
From: "daniela.terrile@xxxxxxxxxxxx" <daniela.terrile@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2012 12:35 PM
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape
Hello Patrick,
I was participant and one time representant in the case of 2 or 3
constellations about rapts. And I made myself one constellation about this
kind of
trauma.
What I can share about this experiences:
About the facts:
The main difficulty is that the parents were not protective enough or she
was herself in fault. And the anger against them or herself is, of course,
directed to the raptor...
Most of this cases are related to sexual abuse or other abuses. This make
it difficult too because the young/little girl can had love or sexual
emotions to her raptor.
She can have lost a part of herself during the facts (innocence, trust in
herself, a part of her soul...) and it is now necessary to retrieve her
integrity.
About your fears regarding the future: it seems, indeed, that women who
has been sexualy abused are anxious to be non-protective enough for their own
children. They become superprotective, and it is feeled by the children as
an abuse too.
But you can see to end with a perspective to her children: how to be when
they will grow...
About your fear to make a new trauma.
Look at her interrest first.
If you are not trusting yourself enough, send her to a colleague or to
your teacher.
Perhaps you can enjoy a supervision before to see her on this case:
perhaps you have to learn something about yourself and this kind of
experiences.
After that, or without that, if you feel that you can trust the
representants, go ahead with care... and trust the group and the helps coming
from
the group and from the representants.
About the cares and the protection frame.
1. With one level of protection (in this case I should set up more
protections -see hereunder).
You can give her, sitting near her (someone like a nurse), during the
constellation. Someone who is responsible to protect her (like a good mother,
protecting her child).
This person has the responsability and the power to stop the constellation
each time it would be necessary, or definitively.
2. Sometimes this kind of trauma needs to organize a serie of protection
lines:
It takes a lot of time to install, but it is really helpfull to her to
feel the protection and the power of the persons empowered to stop the rapt or
the events.
In this case, you install one person helping her like a good mother, near
her (see above)
+ 1 one representing her on a chair (like normaly), but just before her,
sitting in the group (first level fo protection)
+ one level representing the representant of her...
so that she participates in a third or 4th level.
If necessary, only the protections are placed at the first time... and no
constellation.
And later, a constellation (with 1 or more protections again)
Each person representing her or helping her has the right to stop the
constellation or to intervene.
Only the representants know what is her feeling and if it is secure
enough, because she DON'T KNOW anything about security. And probably her
system
also not.
Hoping it will help you to help her on one way or another !
Kind regards,
Marilyn
Marilyn Droog
Brussels
________________________________
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Patrick McNally
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 2:40 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape
Gary and All,
Reading Gary's beautiful explication of forgiveness below is
timely because I have a young woman (early 20's)
who has asked for my help regarding rape while she was in college.
I've not dealt with rape before, and while thinking how we might
proceed in an upcoming workshop, I feel she very much "blames"
the rapist for the devastating effects the experience has had on her
life. She's in a relationship, plans to marry and have children, and
I can only surmise that if left unresolved the rape will have bad
consequences for her children.
Is my feeling right that the rapist has become a member of her
system, or am I taking that too far? It's not murder,
but the degree of violation seems in her case to result in closeness
between her and the rapist, rejected by her, that must come to
light.
I have a bit of fear to proceed, not wanting to cause any
harm, and also recognize that confronting my fear could
open us up to a deep experience in this field, if that's
appropriate to her.
Wanting very much to help her, and appreciating any
comments from the group.
Patrick McNally
________________________________
From: "Gary@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com> " <Gary@xxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com> >
To: "ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com"
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com> >
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 3:33 PM
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Transcending Forgiveness through Acceptance
by Gary Stuart
Transcending Forgiveness Through Acceptance
Today, many healers, seekers and therapists have jumped on a
dysfunctional bandwagon without realizing the systemic consequences at
hand. Bert Hellinger, renowned philosopher and developer of
Constellation work and Spirit-Mind movements, has reported for many,
many years that there is a hidden symmetry and order to love.
As a facilitator of this modality, I must concur that I find these
bold statements to be very true and will gladly help anyone explore and
understand the philosophy and reasoning behind them. As always, let your
heart decide what is right for you and your well-being.
Practicing the "Art of Forgiveness" can be very damaging to the
so-called "forgiver" on many levels. This act of superiority may not
serve their best interests no matter how well-intentioned. This superior
attitude that seeks to be bigger than a perpetrator or any painful
situation actually diminishes the effectiveness of release that only
acceptance can consciously bring about. The "forgiver' actually
perpetuates the pain of victimization in an unhealthful way -- upon
themselves and, unconsciously, upon others as well.
If the desired goal is to release oneself from pain and suffering in
order to heal a deep wound and move beyond an endured atrocity, the very
idea of "forgiveness" becomes detrimental to both the Forgiver and the
Forgiven. Systemically speaking, we would call this being "too big,"
arrogant or presumptuous, as it robs the perpetrator of responsibility,
whether it was our parents or any other person who has done us perceived
"harm." It also disrespects the bigger fate and destiny of our whole
ancestral line. In doing so, the "forgiver" attempts to elevate him or
herself to the "top" of the whole hierarchical system, as if he or she
was the creator of life itself -- showing pity on these poor little
subjects under his or her command. In reality, the most recent addition
to any larger family system has no right to judge those who came before,
as they are the newer members in the larger hierarchical framework known
as a family. Sure we all have our opinions and feelings, and these are
in no way meant to be negated, but if anyone truly wants to break the
cycle of Perpetrator/Victim, "forgiveness" is NOT the way to do it. It
is then the Victim who carries both energies, thereby hurting themselves
with a heavier load of toxic baggage that enslaves them to the past.
ReSOULution
There is a way out, however, that is more simple, profound and
completely healing, leading to a restoration of love, order and harmony
for all concerned. This liberating state of "non-forgiveness" is simply
called "ACCEPTANCE." Can we be small enough and humble enough to
acknowledge our place in the larger context of a multidimensional
generation of forebears from whence we inherited our DNA? We received
the Gift of Life through them despite their suffering and turmoil. This
dualistic condition in which we are living provides wonder and horror
equally. The key is to honor and accept life itself AS IT IS. This
action of accepting imperfection (even the living dynamics of
catastrophic change) will lead us back to our inner and outer harmony,
providing us with dignity and strength. These qualities will only help
us accept the gifts and challenges equally that life continually seems
to toss in our path. It is the ACCEPTANCE of everything "as it is," from
our families to our human history, that releases us all from the chains
of the past and points us toward a better tomorrow.
Just as the arrogance of "forgiveness" weakens us, the humility of
"acceptance" empowers us. It is ours to decide which feels best and does
the most good. Always remember, we did not create the cycle of life. We
are merely participants, and our day in the Sun lasts for a very short
time.
This is our chance to enjoy, transform and better ourselves and our
children, just as those who came before did for us, whether we know it
or not. Taking our rightful place as the smallest member of the family
system allows us to evolve into something great. Honor and gratitude,
along with ACCEPTANCE, breaks the cycle of slavery to which Forgiveness
binds us. Our ACCEPTANCE of life AS IT IS, along with accepting our
parents AS THEY ARE and our larger family system AS IT WAS, relieves us
of our self-appointed role as judge and jury. To remain neutral without
judgments also leads us to accept the good things we inherited more
deeply. By letting those who wronged or hurt us own their own
Perpetrator/Victim energy, we release ourselves from the entanglement
and let the fate and responsibility rest where it belongs -- with them.
This isn't about blame or shaming others for the choices they made.
It is about honoring our own part in it and the acknowledgement that
with acceptance comes release. Life seems to be inherently good, as
everyone who shares life has always tried to follow his or her good
conscience to the best of their ability. Often such incidents occurred
in a place and time pre-dating your own creation and admission into the
family system -- and which, on the deepest of levels, was probably
agreed to all along. Accepting these simple truths will free you and
strengthen your resolve without any need to "FORGIVE." Bow Down in
thankfulness & gratitude as you ACCEPT your life as a Gift that was
Given.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
--
Marilyn Droog
Administrateur-Déléguée
Abunde s.c.r.l.
Expertise en systèmes complexesformateurs
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