Hi Anngwyn
thank you for that feedback, I am taking that on board. Initially I thought my
curiosity was from a strengthening perspective with the thought to enable an
enquiring into self strengths. Though when thinking about a weakening
perspective then yes definitely my curiosity in asking questions in what I see
as coming from a strength perspective could and can be construed and
undermining thus causing further self stress. That is the beauty of these types
of forums, to enable questioning and further questioning of our own
perspectives.
cheers
irene
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: anngwyn@xxxxxxx
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 20:27:59 -0500
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape
Hello Irene,
OK here is some feedback. Perhaps you are new to our international
conversations here on the forum. That said, posts such as this presenting an
expectation that this new person should explain himself any further seems
inappropriate and less than helpful. As Bert Hellinger often asks " does your
curiosity in this case, strengthen or weaken"?
All for now,
Anngwyn St. Just Ph.D.
_http://anngwyn.wisrville.org_ ;(http://anngwyn.wisrville.org)
_www.acst-international.com_ (http://www.acst-international.com)
In a message dated 2/5/2012 6:08:18 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
toast_is_great@xxxxxxxxxxx writes:
Hi Patrick
what is coming up for me at first reading is my own questioning and
feelings around what is this lack of sense of self (your sense of your self)
about? What does that represent for or to you? How come do you believe you are
not the person to help this other person, what is that about?
Then, where would you place these things in a constellation circle, how
would you represent them to yourself and how would you garner meaning from
them?
The other thing that has caught my attention is why do you have to have a
constellation with this woman as a group work session to help her? Is there
any reason/s why you cant assist this woman understand her processes
within the safety of your counselling rooms using, say dolls to represent the
rapist and herself? Or in a subtler sense using soft toys to lessen the
immediate imact of revealing meanings?
Maybe I am right off track here so I would love feedback to help me
understand other ideas, as like you Patrick, I value feedback when delivered in
a
constructive manner.
cheers and looking forward to responses
Irene
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
From: patrick@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Date: Sun, 5 Feb 2012 10:54:09 -0800
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape
Daniela and All,
Having begun this thread and read with interest and gratitude each
response, I'd like to share my impressions so far:
I'm pleased to have opened the conversation to be able to see clearly my
own immaturity as a facilitator, humbled by the deep insights, intelligence
and skill reflected in the responses. Having only facilitated a few
workshops and private sessions in the past three years, I am clearly not ready
to
take on trauma of this nature and might do more harm that good.
It also seems clear that in this case a woman would best handle the issue,
not a man (at lease not me). Therefore, I intend to refer this young
woman to a local facilitator (a woman) who has much more experience and can
likely promote positive movement, maybe over several sessions as some have
suggested.
Although I often trust my intuitive nature, and have received very good
"feedback" from those attending my few workshops, there are severe limits. I
recall in Louisville when Bert Hellinger split us into groups to practice
facilitating, and the issue brought before me was a life threatening
cancer. It confused me terribly, and the constellation was in all respects a
failure. I felt awful about it. Then someone who was in that group asked
Hellinger if we could do harm, reflecting to me, and he said "yes." I fell
into a state of despair, but then went myself to Hellinger (all of this
before the larger group) and asked something to the effect "If we don't try how
are we to learn?" He was very kind, realizing my state of mind, and
offered up something contradictory to the idea that we must not go in a
direction
of harm, but rather try. Of course we know that Bert responds to the
moment, not in generalizations, and that answer was specific to
me. Later he took on that same woman with cancer and her issue would not
move by the "Spirit-Mind" work he was teaching us, and he reverted to the
"Classic Constellation" approach which did have a good effect. For some
reason, that woman's issue was, in fact, confusing when taken on in the ways
of Hellinger's newer insights, at least then in 2007.
As for my fear, I'm open to ideas suggested that might help us as
facilitators deal with the various levels of fear that may arise. I'm still
ruminating why the fear came up for me in this case, and will continue to look.
For now I can let it go and refer appropriately.
My deepest thanks to all for your responses and time.
Patrick
________________________________
From: "daniela.terrile@xxxxxxxxxxxx" <daniela.terrile@xxxxxxxxxxxx>
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Sent: Sunday, February 5, 2012 12:35 PM
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape
Hello Patrick,
I was participant and one time representant in the case of 2 or 3
constellations about rapts. And I made myself one constellation about this kind
of
trauma.
What I can share about this experiences:
About the facts:
The main difficulty is that the parents were not protective enough or she
was herself in fault. And the anger against them or herself is, of course,
directed to the raptor...
Most of this cases are related to sexual abuse or other abuses. This make
it difficult too because the young/little girl can had love or sexual
emotions to her raptor.
She can have lost a part of herself during the facts (innocence, trust in
herself, a part of her soul...) and it is now necessary to retrieve her
integrity.
About your fears regarding the future: it seems, indeed, that women who
has been sexualy abused are anxious to be non-protective enough for their own
children. They become superprotective, and it is feeled by the children as
an abuse too.
But you can see to end with a perspective to her children: how to be when
they will grow...
About your fear to make a new trauma.
Look at her interrest first.
If you are not trusting yourself enough, send her to a colleague or to
your teacher.
Perhaps you can enjoy a supervision before to see her on this case:
perhaps you have to learn something about yourself and this kind of experiences.
After that, or without that, if you feel that you can trust the
representants, go ahead with care... and trust the group and the helps coming
from
the group and from the representants.
About the cares and the protection frame.
1. With one level of protection (in this case I should set up more
protections -see hereunder).
You can give her, sitting near her (someone like a nurse), during the
constellation. Someone who is responsible to protect her (like a good mother,
protecting her child).
This person has the responsability and the power to stop the constellation
each time it would be necessary, or definitively.
2. Sometimes this kind of trauma needs to organize a serie of protection
lines:
It takes a lot of time to install, but it is really helpfull to her to
feel the protection and the power of the persons empowered to stop the rapt or
the events.
In this case, you install one person helping her like a good mother, near
her (see above)
+ 1 one representing her on a chair (like normaly), but just before her,
sitting in the group (first level fo protection)
+ one level representing the representant of her...
so that she participates in a third or 4th level.
If necessary, only the protections are placed at the first time... and no
constellation.
And later, a constellation (with 1 or more protections again)
Each person representing her or helping her has the right to stop the
constellation or to intervene.
Only the representants know what is her feeling and if it is secure
enough, because she DON'T KNOW anything about security. And probably her system
also not.
Hoping it will help you to help her on one way or another !
Kind regards,
Marilyn
Marilyn Droog
Brussels
________________________________
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Patrick McNally
Sent: Friday, February 03, 2012 2:40 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: [ConstellationTalk] Re: Rape
Gary and All,
Reading Gary's beautiful explication of forgiveness below is
timely because I have a young woman (early 20's)
who has asked for my help regarding rape while she was in college.
I've not dealt with rape before, and while thinking how we might
proceed in an upcoming workshop, I feel she very much "blames"
the rapist for the devastating effects the experience has had on her
life. She's in a relationship, plans to marry and have children, and
I can only surmise that if left unresolved the rape will have bad
consequences for her children.
Is my feeling right that the rapist has become a member of her
system, or am I taking that too far? It's not murder,
but the degree of violation seems in her case to result in closeness
between her and the rapist, rejected by her, that must come to
light.
I have a bit of fear to proceed, not wanting to cause any
harm, and also recognize that confronting my fear could
open us up to a deep experience in this field, if that's
appropriate to her.
Wanting very much to help her, and appreciating any
comments from the group.
Patrick McNally
________________________________
From: "Gary@xxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com> " <Gary@xxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:Gary%40CHIfield.com> >
To: "ConstellationTalk@yahoogroups. com"
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ConstellationTalk%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2012 3:33 PM
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