I'll grant that voiceover has an advantage in that it can be used during an install. That's an important point in it's favor. I am not sure that I would consider that point decisive though because it is also true for orca and orca is free. You wouldn't put orca ahead of voiceover would you? A linux machine with orca is going to cost far less than a Mac and you can do the install yourself.
I would also grant voiceoverpoints for being usable on any Mac w/o having to install anything. But both jaws and nvda offer versions that you can put on a thumb drive. So with voiceover, you don't even need the thumb drive. But you don't have to install jaws or nvda to use it on a PC. And of course, there is a downside to your point about being able to walk up to any Mac and use voiceover. Most machines aren't Macs. You can't put Mac OS on non-Apple hardware. I'd have to give jaws, nvda, and orca points for running on non-proprietary hardware.
One thing I cannot grant is that jaws crashes a lot. I think that is a thing of the past. You wouldn't want voiceover from tiger compared to jaws 16, would you?
On 03/23/2015 02:02 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
John, I’m with you. Jaws is very inefficient with memory use, unstable (crashes a lot) extremely expensive and over priced and doesn’t provide anywhere the accessibility required for a job like VoiceOver does. The fact is that VoiceOver gives you access to the entire machine life cycle from initial operating system install, configuration, and then operation and finally decommissioning. Jaws can’t make that claim and really no other bolt on screen reader can. You will find this important if you have a job in IT and are expected to support users. You can’t install windows for a user with out sited help with some exceptions and hacks but in general this is not a trivial process. The other great thing is I can walk up to any Mac, any iPhone, Apple TV and so forth and enable voice over with out sited help. This makes any machine accessible to me not just my machine. I don’t need help installing the screen reader and on and on. The advantages of a real screen reader as a feature far out weigh the bold on after thought variety. This is regardless of specific brand or manufacturer of screen reader. The bolt on install / 3rd party type just don’t hold a candle to any screen reader that’s integrated tightly with the machine in question. On Mar 23, 2015, at 2:25 PM, John Panarese <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:Well, considering my initial comment was meant as a joke and not to start any debates, but everyone is entitled to their opinions. IN my opinion, from some twenty years of computer experience, JAWS is clunky and too expensive and NVDA has its own limitations compared to the paid screen readers. VoiceOver is free and is developed by Apple indent a bolt on screen reader. It all comes down to opinions, which is why this list is for technical support and such, and not an inditement of any screen reader or OS. Take Care John D. Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8 Mountain Lion AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORTOn Mar 23, 2015, at 2:12 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: Well, do we want to get into a debate over screen readers on this list? I am not as fluent with either nvda or voiceover as I could be but they seem pretty even to me. Actually, if I were to rate screen readers, I'd probably pretty much rate them all as a tie. Jaws is the best but it is also the most expensive. Voiceover is the second best and second most expensive. It's not free after all. You have to buy Apple hardware and operating system. Nvda may not be as good as jaws and voiceover but it is totally free. I have never used Window-eyes. I use orca a lot but if there was one screen reader I'd put in last place,it might be orca. I suppose these comments will be controversial on this list. Please feel free to correct my misconceptions. But please try to be polite. On 03/23/2015 09:42 AM, Scott Granados wrote:And all are bolt on after thoughts. NVDA, JFW, WE, what ever they are all after thoughts compared to Voice Over which is integrated like any other feature in the OS. On Mar 23, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:There is a free screen reader for Windows though. It's called nvda. On 03/23/2015 08:57 AM, Scott Granados wrote:Actually, the Mac is not more expensive when you add in the cost of the screen reader. Remember you need to add a grand or so if you’re installing JFW on that new machine so add that to the cost. Voice Over is included for free so that cost is already covered. On Mar 23, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Lena Contreras <contreras_lena@xxxxxx> wrote:Yes. My Mac is approaching five years old. When I had my other windows laptops, when they were around four years old they would start acting strangely. They would crash for no reason the speech would stop working and I would have to reboot or other strange things would happen. So far, my Mac is running fine. I know Friends that have eight or nine-year-old Max that are running well but won't support the latest OSX. When somebody's getting a new computer, I recommend a Macintosh. But some of my friends are Fred to make the switch because of having to relearn things. Also the Mac is more expensive and they want to spend less on the computer. And some of my computer geek friends don't like the "control "that Apple has. Lena Sent from my iPadOn Mar 23, 2015, at 5:31 AM, Scott Granados <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: +1 Microsoft has scarred me too. It’s hard to get over that level of bad design and lack of security.On Mar 22, 2015, at 11:47 AM, John Panarese <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Unfortunately, I keep having this nightmare that I still have to use Windows to train a few clients, but it's actually reality and not some bad dream. I guess, in your case, the psychological scars remain ... Take Care John D. Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8 Mountain Lion AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORTOn Mar 22, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Lena Contreras <contreras_lena@xxxxxx> wrote: I was listening to a couple podcasts yesterday about the new Apple MacBook and Apple Watch. Last night I had a strange dream. I dreamt that I was typing away on a laptop who's screen would not stay open and I had to lay it down flat on the table like an iPad. It didn't bother me though because I was listening to the voice and did not need to see the screen and an angle. I remember I was typing and all of a sudden realize that there was no voice feedback. When I checked to see if the computer was running it had crashed. I somehow knew that it was a Windows machine and wondered why I did not hear the sound I had originally used to tell me when the computer was crashing. I remember feeling frustrated and thinking that I should get a Mac. I just thought it was very weird to have this dream when my MacBook Pro is running well and I have not touched a Windows computer in about five years. Funny how the brain works. Lena Sent from my iPhone************ You are subscribed to the mac4theblind mailing list. 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