John, when you write stuff like this, it brings your objectivity into question. You've asked me to trust your experience on many of your points. How can I do that when you give every indication of being an Apple zealot?
The fact is that sales of Windows machines still far exceeds that of Macs. If the best operating system is, as you yourself said, the one with the most users, that would be Windows. If the best desktop screen reader is the one with the most users, that would be jaws. But better isn't determined by popularity.
To some degree, the trend has been away from Windows to Macs. To some degree, the trend has also been away from desktops to mobile devices. But mostly, the trend has been toward adding mobile devices to the mix. Mostly, people still have a desktop at their job. It's just that now, they probably also have at least one mobile device -- a tablet or smart phone.
> The reality is you still have a group of Windows users who still are stuck in the 1990's mindset and try to compare JAWS or any other screen reader from that perspective. I've used them all, and I don't find any advantage in that operating system to the Mac and VoiceOver. Windows itself is inefficient, which is why Microsoft has lost a vast majority of the status and prestige that it once held. The classic, "everyone is using Windows" excuse just doesn't float any more. Business, governmental agencies, consumers ... Windows is not the juggernaut it used to be. If you are living in a cave and don't read the marketing data or the various technical outlets that discuss market trends, then maybe you'll throw the old, "95 percent of computers are running Windows" outdated line. Take Care John D. Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8 Mountain Lion AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
On Mar 23, 2015, at 3:02 PM, Scott Granados <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: John, I’m with you. Jaws is very inefficient with memory use, unstable (crashes a lot) extremely expensive and over priced and doesn’t provide anywhere the accessibility required for a job like VoiceOver does. The fact is that VoiceOver gives you access to the entire machine life cycle from initial operating system install, configuration, and then operation and finally decommissioning. Jaws can’t make that claim and really no other bolt on screen reader can. You will find this important if you have a job in IT and are expected to support users. You can’t install windows for a user with out sited help with some exceptions and hacks but in general this is not a trivial process. The other great thing is I can walk up to any Mac, any iPhone, Apple TV and so forth and enable voice over with out sited help. This makes any machine accessible to me not just my machine. I don’t need help installing the screen reader and on and on. The advantages of a real screen reader as a feature far out weigh the bold on after thought variety. This is regardless of specific brand or manufacturer of screen reader. The bolt on install / 3rd party type just don’t hold a candle to any screen reader that’s integrated tightly with the machine in question. On Mar 23, 2015, at 2:25 PM, John Panarese <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:Well, considering my initial comment was meant as a joke and not to start any debates, but everyone is entitled to their opinions. IN my opinion, from some twenty years of computer experience, JAWS is clunky and too expensive and NVDA has its own limitations compared to the paid screen readers. VoiceOver is free and is developed by Apple indent a bolt on screen reader. It all comes down to opinions, which is why this list is for technical support and such, and not an inditement of any screen reader or OS. Take Care John D. Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8 Mountain Lion AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORTOn Mar 23, 2015, at 2:12 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote: Well, do we want to get into a debate over screen readers on this list? I am not as fluent with either nvda or voiceover as I could be but they seem pretty even to me. Actually, if I were to rate screen readers, I'd probably pretty much rate them all as a tie. Jaws is the best but it is also the most expensive. Voiceover is the second best and second most expensive. It's not free after all. You have to buy Apple hardware and operating system. Nvda may not be as good as jaws and voiceover but it is totally free. I have never used Window-eyes. I use orca a lot but if there was one screen reader I'd put in last place,it might be orca. I suppose these comments will be controversial on this list. Please feel free to correct my misconceptions. But please try to be polite. On 03/23/2015 09:42 AM, Scott Granados wrote:And all are bolt on after thoughts. NVDA, JFW, WE, what ever they are all after thoughts compared to Voice Over which is integrated like any other feature in the OS. On Mar 23, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:There is a free screen reader for Windows though. It's called nvda. On 03/23/2015 08:57 AM, Scott Granados wrote:Actually, the Mac is not more expensive when you add in the cost of the screen reader. Remember you need to add a grand or so if you’re installing JFW on that new machine so add that to the cost. Voice Over is included for free so that cost is already covered. On Mar 23, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Lena Contreras <contreras_lena@xxxxxx> wrote:Yes. My Mac is approaching five years old. When I had my other windows laptops, when they were around four years old they would start acting strangely. They would crash for no reason the speech would stop working and I would have to reboot or other strange things would happen. So far, my Mac is running fine. I know Friends that have eight or nine-year-old Max that are running well but won't support the latest OSX. When somebody's getting a new computer, I recommend a Macintosh. But some of my friends are Fred to make the switch because of having to relearn things. Also the Mac is more expensive and they want to spend less on the computer. And some of my computer geek friends don't like the "control "that Apple has. Lena Sent from my iPadOn Mar 23, 2015, at 5:31 AM, Scott Granados <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: +1 Microsoft has scarred me too. It’s hard to get over that level of bad design and lack of security.On Mar 22, 2015, at 11:47 AM, John Panarese <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote: Unfortunately, I keep having this nightmare that I still have to use Windows to train a few clients, but it's actually reality and not some bad dream. I guess, in your case, the psychological scars remain ... Take Care John D. Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8 Mountain Lion AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORTOn Mar 22, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Lena Contreras <contreras_lena@xxxxxx> wrote: I was listening to a couple podcasts yesterday about the new Apple MacBook and Apple Watch. Last night I had a strange dream. I dreamt that I was typing away on a laptop who's screen would not stay open and I had to lay it down flat on the table like an iPad. It didn't bother me though because I was listening to the voice and did not need to see the screen and an angle. I remember I was typing and all of a sudden realize that there was no voice feedback. When I checked to see if the computer was running it had crashed. I somehow knew that it was a Windows machine and wondered why I did not hear the sound I had originally used to tell me when the computer was crashing. I remember feeling frustrated and thinking that I should get a Mac. I just thought it was very weird to have this dream when my MacBook Pro is running well and I have not touched a Windows computer in about five years. Funny how the brain works. Lena Sent from my iPhone************ You are subscribed to the mac4theblind mailing list. The url for this list, where one can unsubscribe or make any changes to their list subscription is: //www.freelists.org/list/mac4theblind The list archive is located at //www.freelists.org/archive/mac4theblind/ All emails intended for the list owner can be sent to: john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx************ You are subscribed to the mac4theblind mailing list. The url for this list, where one can unsubscribe or make any changes to their list subscription is: //www.freelists.org/list/mac4theblind The list archive is located at //www.freelists.org/archive/mac4theblind/ All emails intended for the list owner can be sent to: john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx************ You are subscribed to the mac4theblind mailing list. The url for this list, where one can unsubscribe or make any changes to their list subscription is: //www.freelists.org/list/mac4theblind The list archive is located at //www.freelists.org/archive/mac4theblind/ All emails intended for the list owner can be sent to: john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx************ You are subscribed to the mac4theblind mailing list. The url for this list, where one can unsubscribe or make any changes to their list subscription is: //www.freelists.org/list/mac4theblind The list archive is located at //www.freelists.org/archive/mac4theblind/ All emails intended for the list owner can be sent to: john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx************ You are subscribed to the mac4theblind mailing list. The url for this list, where one can unsubscribe or make any changes to their list subscription is: //www.freelists.org/list/mac4theblind The list archive is located at //www.freelists.org/archive/mac4theblind/ All emails intended for the list owner can be sent to: john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx************ You are subscribed to the mac4theblind mailing list. The url for this list, where one can unsubscribe or make any changes to their list subscription is: //www.freelists.org/list/mac4theblind The list archive is located at //www.freelists.org/archive/mac4theblind/ All emails intended for the list owner can be sent to: john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx************ You are subscribed to the mac4theblind mailing list. The url for this list, where one can unsubscribe or make any changes to their list subscription is: //www.freelists.org/list/mac4theblind The list archive is located at //www.freelists.org/archive/mac4theblind/ All emails intended for the list owner can be sent to: john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx************ You are subscribed to the mac4theblind mailing list. The url for this list, where one can unsubscribe or make any changes to their list subscription is: //www.freelists.org/list/mac4theblind The list archive is located at //www.freelists.org/archive/mac4theblind/ All emails intended for the list owner can be sent to: john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx************ You are subscribed to the mac4theblind mailing list. The url for this list, where one can unsubscribe or make any changes to their list subscription is: //www.freelists.org/list/mac4theblind The list archive is located at //www.freelists.org/archive/mac4theblind/ All emails intended for the list owner can be sent to: john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx************ You are subscribed to the mac4theblind mailing list. The url for this list, where one can unsubscribe or make any changes to their list subscription is: //www.freelists.org/list/mac4theblind The list archive is located at //www.freelists.org/archive/mac4theblind/ All emails intended for the list owner can be sent to: john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx************ You are subscribed to the mac4theblind mailing list. The url for this list, where one can unsubscribe or make any changes to their list subscription is: //www.freelists.org/list/mac4theblind The list archive is located at //www.freelists.org/archive/mac4theblind/ All emails intended for the list owner can be sent to: john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
************
You are subscribed to the mac4theblind mailing list.
The url for this list, where one can unsubscribe or make any changes to
their list subscription is:
//www.freelists.org/list/mac4theblind
The list archive is located at
//www.freelists.org/archive/mac4theblind/
All emails intended for the list owner can be sent to:
john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
