[mac4theblind] Re: Strange and startling dream
- From: John Panarese <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: mac4theblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 17:37:15 -0400
Understand that I receive over five-hundred emails a day, and I don't have
a lot of time to entertain and respond in depth to every one. Also, whether you
know it or not, you have started to give me the impression that you are
trolling here. I don't waste my time with people who make me believe they are
simply looking to be argumentative. You seem to throw out statements that ring
of reactionary intent, regardless of whether its your intention or not. As I
said, you can do Google searches as I have done and read about everything I've
said here.
There are many technology sources and blogs that discuss the decline of
Windows and the PC and Apple's continued progressive rise in market share in
both the consumer and enterprise markets. PCs are not outselling Macs. You
repeat that point, but it has not been true for five years and some eighteen or
20 sales quarters. PC sales have been steadily declining, especially over the
last two years, while the Mac has increased each of those years by double of
that of the declining rate of the PC. So, that leads me to believe, again, you
are just looking for a debate and that, again, smells of trolling.
I just read something recently that addresses Scott's points about IT people
and the Mac quite extensively and why Windows IT people have had to diversify
their knowledge and learn the Mac. Unfortunately, I don't have time to dig up
facts and figures, and this topic, as interesting as it always is, may not be
appreciated by everyone. I have been tempted to shut it down, but no one has
asked me to do so either off list or on list yet. As soon as someone takes
issue with it, I'm going to have to ask it to stop. Also, Scott has addressed
your screen reader questions and comments with his own personal experience, and
he is someone who has been in this field longer than me, if I'm not mistaken.
Take Care
John D. Panarese
Director
Mac for the Blind
Tel, (631) 724-4479
Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8 Mountain
Lion
AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
> On Mar 23, 2015, at 5:16 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> John, when you write stuff like this, it brings your objectivity into
> question. You've asked me to trust your experience on many of your points.
> How can I do that when you give every indication of being an Apple zealot?
>
> The fact is that sales of Windows machines still far exceeds that of Macs. If
> the best operating system is, as you yourself said, the one with the most
> users, that would be Windows. If the best desktop screen reader is the one
> with the most users, that would be jaws. But better isn't determined by
> popularity.
>
> To some degree, the trend has been away from Windows to Macs. To some degree,
> the trend has also been away from desktops to mobile devices. But mostly, the
> trend has been toward adding mobile devices to the mix. Mostly, people still
> have a desktop at their job. It's just that now, they probably also have at
> least one mobile device -- a tablet or smart phone.
>
>
>
> > The reality is you still have a group of Windows users who still are stuck
> > in the 1990's mindset and try to compare JAWS or any other screen reader
> > from that perspective. I've used them all, and I don't find any advantage
> > in that operating system to the Mac and VoiceOver. Windows itself is
> > inefficient, which is why Microsoft has lost a vast majority of the status
> > and prestige that it once held. The classic, "everyone is using Windows"
> > excuse just doesn't float any more. Business, governmental agencies,
> > consumers ... Windows is not the juggernaut it used to be. If you are
> > living in a cave and don't read the marketing data or the various technical
> > outlets that discuss market trends, then maybe you'll throw the old, "95
> > percent of computers are running Windows" outdated line. Take Care John D.
> > Panarese Director Mac for the Blind Tel, (631) 724-4479 Email,
> > john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com APPLE
> > CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8 Mountain Lion
> > AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING
> > AND SUPPORT
>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 3:02 PM, Scott Granados <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> John, I’m with you.
>>>
>>> Jaws is very inefficient with memory use, unstable (crashes a lot)
>>> extremely expensive and over priced and doesn’t provide anywhere the
>>> accessibility required for a job like VoiceOver does. The fact is that
>>> VoiceOver gives you access to the entire machine life cycle from initial
>>> operating system install, configuration, and then operation and finally
>>> decommissioning. Jaws can’t make that claim and really no other bolt on
>>> screen reader can. You will find this important if you have a job in IT
>>> and are expected to support users. You can’t install windows for a user
>>> with out sited help with some exceptions and hacks but in general this is
>>> not a trivial process.
>>> The other great thing is I can walk up to any Mac, any iPhone, Apple TV
>>> and so forth and enable voice over with out sited help. This makes any
>>> machine accessible to me not just my machine. I don’t need help installing
>>> the screen reader and on and on. The advantages of a real screen reader as
>>> a feature far out weigh the bold on after thought variety.
>>>
>>> This is regardless of specific brand or manufacturer of screen reader. The
>>> bolt on install / 3rd party type just don’t hold a candle to any screen
>>> reader that’s integrated tightly with the machine in question.
>>>
>>>
>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 2:25 PM, John Panarese <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Well, considering my initial comment was meant as a joke and not to start
>>>> any debates, but everyone is entitled to their opinions. IN my opinion,
>>>> from some twenty years of computer experience, JAWS is clunky and too
>>>> expensive and NVDA has its own limitations compared to the paid screen
>>>> readers. VoiceOver is free and is developed by Apple indent a bolt on
>>>> screen reader. It all comes down to opinions, which is why this list is
>>>> for technical support and such, and not an inditement of any screen reader
>>>> or OS.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Take Care
>>>>
>>>> John D. Panarese
>>>> Director
>>>> Mac for the Blind
>>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>>>
>>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8
>>>> Mountain Lion
>>>>
>>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>>
>>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 2:12 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, do we want to get into a debate over screen readers on this list? I
>>>>> am not as fluent with either nvda or voiceover as I could be but they
>>>>> seem pretty even to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, if I were to rate screen readers, I'd probably pretty much rate
>>>>> them all as a tie. Jaws is the best but it is also the most expensive.
>>>>> Voiceover is the second best and second most expensive. It's not free
>>>>> after all. You have to buy Apple hardware and operating system. Nvda may
>>>>> not be as good as jaws and voiceover but it is totally free. I have never
>>>>> used Window-eyes. I use orca a lot but if there was one screen reader I'd
>>>>> put in last place,it might be orca.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose these comments will be controversial on this list. Please feel
>>>>> free to correct my misconceptions. But please try to be polite.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 03/23/2015 09:42 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>>>>> And all are bolt on after thoughts. NVDA, JFW, WE, what ever they are
>>>>>> all after thoughts compared to Voice Over which is integrated like any
>>>>>> other feature in the OS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is a free screen reader for Windows though. It's called nvda.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 03/23/2015 08:57 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>>>>>>> Actually, the Mac is not more expensive when you add in the cost of
>>>>>>>> the screen reader. Remember you need to add a grand or so if you’re
>>>>>>>> installing JFW on that new machine so add that to the cost. Voice
>>>>>>>> Over is included for free so that cost is already covered.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Lena Contreras <contreras_lena@xxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes. My Mac is approaching five years old. When I had my other
>>>>>>>>> windows laptops, when they were around four years old they would
>>>>>>>>> start acting strangely. They would crash for no reason the speech
>>>>>>>>> would stop working and I would have to reboot or other strange things
>>>>>>>>> would happen. So far, my Mac is running fine. I know Friends that
>>>>>>>>> have eight or nine-year-old Max that are running well but won't
>>>>>>>>> support the latest OSX. When somebody's getting a new computer, I
>>>>>>>>> recommend a Macintosh. But some of my friends are Fred to make the
>>>>>>>>> switch because of having to relearn things. Also the Mac is more
>>>>>>>>> expensive and they want to spend less on the computer. And some of my
>>>>>>>>> computer geek friends don't like the "control "that Apple has.
>>>>>>>>> Lena
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 5:31 AM, Scott Granados <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> +1 Microsoft has scarred me too. It’s hard to get over that level
>>>>>>>>>> of bad design and lack of security.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2015, at 11:47 AM, John Panarese
>>>>>>>>>>> <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, I keep having this nightmare that I still have to
>>>>>>>>>>> use Windows to train a few clients, but it's actually reality and
>>>>>>>>>>> not some bad dream. I guess, in your case, the psychological scars
>>>>>>>>>>> remain ...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Take Care
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> John D. Panarese
>>>>>>>>>>> Director
>>>>>>>>>>> Mac for the Blind
>>>>>>>>>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>>>>>>>>>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8
>>>>>>>>>>> Mountain Lion
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Lena Contreras
>>>>>>>>>>>> <contreras_lena@xxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was listening to a couple podcasts yesterday about the new Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>> MacBook and Apple Watch. Last night I had a strange dream. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> dreamt that I was typing away on a laptop who's screen would not
>>>>>>>>>>>> stay open and I had to lay it down flat on the table like an iPad.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It didn't bother me though because I was listening to the voice
>>>>>>>>>>>> and did not need to see the screen and an angle.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember I was typing and all of a sudden realize that there was
>>>>>>>>>>>> no voice feedback. When I checked to see if the computer was
>>>>>>>>>>>> running it had crashed. I somehow knew that it was a Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>> machine and wondered why I did not hear the sound I had originally
>>>>>>>>>>>> used to tell me when the computer was crashing. I remember feeling
>>>>>>>>>>>> frustrated and thinking that I should get a Mac. I just thought it
>>>>>>>>>>>> was very weird to have this dream when my MacBook Pro is running
>>>>>>>>>>>> well and I have not touched a Windows computer in about five
>>>>>>>>>>>> years. Funny how the brain works.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lena
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone************
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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