What a great conversation – many thanks to all who have been part of it.
I am taking from this an awareness of how much “shame” is in the field.
There is a good reason so much is hidden in the subconscious, individual or
collective.
Resistance in the form of anger or numbness or flight (the fight, flee, freeze
response) is
one way to guard against feeling or seeing or being in that painful state of
shame.
When someone feels “shamed” or “ashamed” they often regress to a very young
state
– even appearing smaller physically as well as energetically.
An act of humility like bowing does not elicit such painful feelings nor does
the person
seem to regress to a wounded or helpless state. Right-sizing feels right.
If the shamed or ashamed part of a client emerges its an opportunity for the
“frozen past”
where that part lives to be revisited and released.
Interventions in a group setting that seem like a public judgment (you are not
ready) is
being rendered by an authority figure on the client in a harsh manner should be
questioned
and challenged. Why are you (the a-figure) risking re-traumatizing the client?
Perhaps, as some argue, “shame” has the function as an enforcer of public
morality
and norms. The scarlet letter and many other great books have certainly
explored this point of view.
Psychopaths typically don’t feel shame or any other self limiting emotions.
Some people over conform
and avoid others because they are filled with shame, that may not even be
theirs.
Maybe its best to continue to work phenonologically as we do; seeing what
impact “shame” has had
on the client and its role in the system and going on from there.
Thanks again
Harrison
Sent from Mail<https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows 10
From: Leslie Nipps lnipps@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk]<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 12:38 PM
To: Constellation Talk<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
I just got a great deal out of the dialogue between Hania and Chris, so thank
you! I can feel the systemic connection between shame and what Hania is calling
humility. Can’t we all remember a representation in which we were resisting,
resisting shame, and then we let go, and there is was, the bliss of humility in
its place? So, they are surely connected. Whether more like the way Hania
describes it, or as Chris describes it (dampening as a lesser form of
shame—connected to humility perhaps?), I think we can all feel the systemic
desires hidden in shame, and how it can be a gift if we look for them.
Having said all that, there is a great difference between all this and using
shaming systematically with a client - I think we have two different
conversations overlapping here (one about the systemics of shame, and one about
using shame as a facilitator tool). I can say that systemically, the role of
shaming the client at a recent Hellinger event was less about the client per
se, and more about influencing the larger group. One never knew if the next
client was going to be the love-bombed one, or the shamed one. And it led to
lots of interesting compliance behaviors from both clients and the rest of the
gathering. People who don’t see it as shaming will argue vociferously that it’s
very good for the client who wasn’t “ready” (or some such). Even considering
that it might mean something different can be very upsetting for people who
have a lot of emotional well-being caught up in the “goodness” of the leader. I
think it’s more about a leader and their followers, than it is about an attempt
at a meaningful client intervention.
Peace, Leslie
The Rev. Leslie Nipps
NLP & Family Constellations Practitioner
“Trust as a Way of Life…”
www.leslienipps.com
Co-Director, 2015 North American Systemic Constellations Conference in San
Diego on November 12-15.
Visit ConstellateUs.com/conference2015 for more information
On Mar 15, 2016, at 6:35 AM, Hania Gorski haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Chris and All,
I would like to bring the point, that there are different concepts of shame,
and different definitions.
Chris, I respectfully disagree with you - I see that it's a kind of your
definition, or interpretation of shame, as looking at "adaptive" and "healthy"
function of shame.
I see the topic you're describing - as a misconstruction of mixing shame with
humbleness.
The ritual of bowing has nothing in common with shame and it's actually
opposite - it's gentle, humble respect and acknowledgement of being small (yes,
shrinking from being too big, a very healthy process). That is description of
being humble, not shamed.
Humbleness is healthy and adaptive, and facilitates deep growth.
Shame - in my opinion, and my therapeutic/facilitator experience - is never a
good motivator as it's impossible to bring any real goodness by imposing
negativity, like cleaning a floor with a dirty cloth.
It always brings a sense of isolation, alienation, separation, not connection.
Shame stands next to fear and guilt and rejection, and it was used along with
all these negative "tools" as an effective social control/power weapon
(sometimes deadly) in the history of human kind, and it is still used. It
was/is also widely used in raising children to make them obedient and
disconnected from themselves in order to serve adult society purposes.
Shame is also inseparable from family "dirty" secrets, sexual abuse trauma, and
domestic violence.
Shame is a toxic tool of domination in relationships, separating people from
each other, and from Love, therefore it's against Orders of Love. That's my
definition.
No surprise that we deal with shame in constellation work; from the beginning,
in a process of offering clients constellation, we see facets of shame in
family system - visible even in our clients' resistance to work in a group
setting.
Groups/constellation workshops are potential theatres of shame and
retraumatisation, so it is so extremely important for the facilitator to be
aware of these dynamics, and to not step into/re-create the shame space. The
Knowing Field is also a potential mining field.
Thanks Robert for posting the link to Vivien Broughton article about ethics in
constellation facilitation - what she listed as good qualities of a
facilitator, emphasises importance of navigating through the constellation
process in such way that doesn't deepen shame and doesn't retraumatise clients
(and representatives).
I'd like to respond also to the beginning of this thread when someone asked
about experiences with shame in constellations.
I had a very interesting and learning experience as a representative; I was
representing a father of the client; this father was a son of a man who was
caught up as a paedophile.
While I was standing in my representative role, I've experienced few feelings
and body sensations/movements. One of the leading feelings was an enormous
shame, felt as unforgivable guilt/shame and alienation; my body was heavy under
these feelings, like a lifeless heavy bag, and my eyes were glued to the floor.
Unfortunately, the facilitator didn't ask for my report as a representative for
a long time (even if the main enquiry from the client was about her
relationship with her father whom I was representing).
The facilitator was stating aloud that the father is looking at dead, and
bringing representative for dead. Later on, when it was not leading anywhere, I
was asked for the report, and I stated my feelings of shame (with few others).
When the shame was brought and acknowledged, a process of healing begun, and
gradually I could see my daughter. That was bringing a further healing to the
daughter.
I'd like to respond also to someone mentioning prof. Brene Brown, a researcher
of vulnerability and shame. I love her concepts and presentations, she brings a
lot of new air to understanding of social dynamics of shame and vulnerability
in society and culture. She clearly distinguishes shame from humbleness, and
her research proves that shame damages and alienates people. Her antidote to
shame - in short - is courage and authenticity, which implies humbleness and
acceptance of our imperfections.
Her findings are great in a broad social context as Brene Brown focuses mainly
on social/cultural/gender context of shame (she is a professor of social work
at Texas University).
She calls herself a shame researcher, but unfortunately she doesn't go to shame
issues in a trauma/family system context.
That area of shame still awaits to be explored fully, as some of B.B. proposals
of resolving shame are not really helpful for traumatised clients who are
deeply buried in shame.
I think that shame is so important and rich topic, and there are so interesting
cultural specifics regarding reasons and expressions of shame. We need to be
aware of these cross-cultural subtleties.
I hope to hear more from our forum members.
Best regards
Hania Gorski, Melbourne
Psychologist, Relationship Coach, Systemic Therapist
Mobile: +61 400 225 357
Email: haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx
Website: www.wholerelationships.com www.familysystemic.com
www.integritysources.com
The world, I’ve come to think, is like the surface of a frozen lake. We walk
along, we slip, we try to keep our balance and not to fall. One day, there’s a
crack, and so we learn that underneath us — is an unimaginable depth. James
Joyce
On 15 March 2016 at 22:16, 'Cristina Casanova' krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Learning to stay with the affect of shame in the body, and discharging the
emotion without reacting, finding a creative answers gives me an immense
freedom to be.
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 4:10 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
Thanks for that Cristina
You have given us Tomkins description of what elicits the affect of shame and I
think it is a great starting point.
If as constellation practitioners we understood affect/ emotions better we
could do a much better job.
Personally I do have some problems with Tomkins theory. Firstly the word shame
is far too strong for most people and they automatically equate it with a toxic
form of shame where it spirals out of control in much the same way as anxiety
can when it becomes panic. So "shame" is a difficult word. A better word for
the mild version of that feeling is dampening as in "His excitement was
dampened." We can intuitively tell that this is accurate because when we say
someone is shameless we mean they won't let go of their excitement, they won't
admit they have made a mistake.
With the word dampening, it is now much more possible to see the adaptive
value of shame. Then it is much more possible to have a sensible discussion. It
is then possible to see there is a mild version of shame called dampening which
has a lot of qualities that are identical to the severe form called shame or
humiliation. Both slow us down physically and cognitively. Dampening helps us
to step back and take stock and then act more skillfully. Shame can paralyse us.
Despite this shame feels quite different to dampening just as panic feels quite
different to mild anxiety. The way to deal with panic is to develop a friendly
relationship with anxiety. The way to deal with shame is to develop a friendly
relationship with dampening.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425
www.cwalsh.com.au
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:13 PM, 'Cristina Casanova' krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Shame is an affect wired into the nervous system. It happens when joy and
interest are interrupted and it is felt by people in different degrees.
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 8:42 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
Hi Chris,
I am not so sure about “shameless is untrustworthy”. The colloquial use of
shameless is perhaps someone who will not hold back in the face of possible
disapproval or rejection. That may not make them unloving and therefore
untrustworthy.
Buddhism not with standing, could it be that shame is an unequivocal sign of
trauma? Would the healthy, happy and wise still need the intense fear of shame
or self rejection as an impulse control mechanism? Shall we throw out that
baby, bathwater and all?
Best wishes,
Robert
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Thanks Cristina
Sylvan Tomkins and his followers including Donald Nathanson are the only people
I know who define shame in a meaningful way when they talk about it. Without a
definition much of the conversation about shame ends up being a series of
misunderstandings where people are talking cross purposes.
Tomkins describes shame as being a flattening emotion (or affect to be precise)
that makes us lose energy, makes us clumsy and stops us from thinking clearly.
Despite that, like all of our emotions, it has adaptive value. It dampens our
excitement when it is misdirected. There is a linguistic clue to that when we
look at the word "shameless".
Someone who is shameless is untrustworthy because they don't pay any attention
to social constraints. Shame is important for socialisation and fitting into
groups. Of course it can be misused to beat people into shape but let's not
commit the error of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
It is interesting that Steve who is working with Asian cultures raised this
topic. Asian cultures are less individualistic and prioritise collective
wellbeing. As such they treat shaming more delicately. They are very aware of
it in the concept of "face". Saving face is extremely important for the
Chinese. Causing someone to lose face is a very serious matter.
Unfortunately we in the West have gone from ignoring shame to demonising it -
especially in therapeutic circles. As far as I am concerned that is still a
very primitive response. Shame needs to be integrated, to be given a place and
included and to be valued as an adaptive emotion. Only then can we have a
healthy relationship with shame - Sounds like a constellation doesn't it!
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425
www.cwalsh.com.au
