Dear Hania and all,
I entirely agree with Hania about shame. Id like to add that I find one of
the greatest pleasure of the ³ predator² is to keep the other one ³ small²
and Full of shame. Small.
Even though the mistake may be smallbut the tendency is to dominate the
other one thru ³ shame². You will be punishedand continue to be punished
Pay your errors
It is easy to see the ³ predator² in us. If we have a tendency to keep the
other one ³ small² and ³ paying for his mistakes² even the small ones. We
feel ³ on top² and the other ³ submissive²
Whatever ³ the error² .
Shame is instilled.
One of the greatest book on shame I have ever read is ³ Healing the Shame
that Binds You² by John Bradshaw and that helped me a lot.
Zaquie C Meredith, Sao Paulo, Brazil
www.zaquie.com
zaquie@xxxxxxxxxx
(011) 979978808 (Vivo)
www.facebook/com/zaquie.meredith
Linkedin.com/in/zaquie
youtube:zaquiemeredith
twitter:zaquiemeredith
From: <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of "Leslie Nipps
lnipps@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]" <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Reply-To: <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 at 1:38 PM
To: Constellation Talk <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
I just got a great deal out of the dialogue between Hania and Chris, so
thank you! I can feel the systemic connection between shame and what Hania
is calling humility. Can¹t we all remember a representation in which we were
resisting, resisting shame, and then we let go, and there is was, the bliss
of humility in its place? So, they are surely connected. Whether more like
the way Hania describes it, or as Chris describes it (dampening as a lesser
form of shameconnected to humility perhaps?), I think we can all feel the
systemic desires hidden in shame, and how it can be a gift if we look for
them.
Having said all that, there is a great difference between all this and using
shaming systematically with a client - I think we have two different
conversations overlapping here (one about the systemics of shame, and one
about using shame as a facilitator tool). I can say that systemically, the
role of shaming the client at a recent Hellinger event was less about the
client per se, and more about influencing the larger group. One never knew
if the next client was going to be the love-bombed one, or the shamed one.
And it led to lots of interesting compliance behaviors from both clients and
the rest of the gathering. People who don¹t see it as shaming will argue
vociferously that it¹s very good for the client who wasn¹t ³ready² (or some
such). Even considering that it might mean something different can be very
upsetting for people who have a lot of emotional well-being caught up in the
³goodness² of the leader. I think it¹s more about a leader and their
followers, than it is about an attempt at a meaningful client intervention.
Peace, Leslie
The Rev. Leslie Nipps
NLP & Family Constellations Practitioner
³Trust as a Way of Life²
www.leslienipps.com <http://www.leslienipps.com>
Co-Director, 2015 North American Systemic Constellations Conference in San
Diego on November 12-15.
Visit ConstellateUs.com/conference2015 for more information
On Mar 15, 2016, at 6:35 AM, Hania Gorski haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Chris and All,
I would like to bring the point, that there are different concepts of shame,
and different definitions.
Chris, I respectfully disagree with you - I see that it's a kind of your
definition, or interpretation of shame, as looking at "adaptive" and
"healthy" function of shame.
I see the topic you're describing - as a misconstruction of mixing shame
with humbleness.
The ritual of bowing has nothing in common with shame and it's actually
opposite - it's gentle, humble respect and acknowledgement of being small
(yes, shrinking from being too big, a very healthy process). That is
description of being humble, not shamed.
Humbleness is healthy and adaptive, and facilitates deep growth.
Shame - in my opinion, and my therapeutic/facilitator experience - is never
a good motivator as it's impossible to bring any real goodness by imposing
negativity, like cleaning a floor with a dirty cloth.
It always brings a sense of isolation, alienation, separation, not
connection.
Shame stands next to fear and guilt and rejection, and it was used along
with all these negative "tools" as an effective social control/power weapon
(sometimes deadly) in the history of human kind, and it is still used. It
was/is also widely used in raising children to make them obedient and
disconnected from themselves in order to serve adult society purposes.
Shame is also inseparable from family "dirty" secrets, sexual abuse trauma,
and domestic violence.
Shame is a toxic tool of domination in relationships, separating people from
each other, and from Love, therefore it's against Orders of Love. That's my
definition.
No surprise that we deal with shame in constellation work; from the
beginning, in a process of offering clients constellation, we see facets of
shame in family system - visible even in our clients' resistance to work in
a group setting.
Groups/constellation workshops are potential theatres of shame and
retraumatisation, so it is so extremely important for the facilitator to be
aware of these dynamics, and to not step into/re-create the shame space. The
Knowing Field is also a potential mining field.
Thanks Robert for posting the link to Vivien Broughton article about ethics
in constellation facilitation - what she listed as good qualities of a
facilitator, emphasises importance of navigating through the constellation
process in such way that doesn't deepen shame and doesn't retraumatise
clients (and representatives).
I'd like to respond also to the beginning of this thread when someone asked
about experiences with shame in constellations.
I had a very interesting and learning experience as a representative; I was
representing a father of the client; this father was a son of a man who was
caught up as a paedophile.
While I was standing in my representative role, I've experienced few
feelings and body sensations/movements. One of the leading feelings was an
enormous shame, felt as unforgivable guilt/shame and alienation; my body was
heavy under these feelings, like a lifeless heavy bag, and my eyes were
glued to the floor.
Unfortunately, the facilitator didn't ask for my report as a representative
for a long time (even if the main enquiry from the client was about her
relationship with her father whom I was representing).
The facilitator was stating aloud that the father is looking at dead, and
bringing representative for dead. Later on, when it was not leading
anywhere, I was asked for the report, and I stated my feelings of shame
(with few others). When the shame was brought and acknowledged, a process of
healing begun, and gradually I could see my daughter. That was bringing a
further healing to the daughter.
I'd like to respond also to someone mentioning prof. Brene Brown, a
researcher of vulnerability and shame. I love her concepts and
presentations, she brings a lot of new air to understanding of social
dynamics of shame and vulnerability in society and culture. She clearly
distinguishes shame from humbleness, and her research proves that shame
damages and alienates people. Her antidote to shame - in short - is courage
and authenticity, which implies humbleness and acceptance of our
imperfections.
Her findings are great in a broad social context as Brene Brown focuses
mainly on social/cultural/gender context of shame (she is a professor of
social work at Texas University).
She calls herself a shame researcher, but unfortunately she doesn't go to
shame issues in a trauma/family system context.
That area of shame still awaits to be explored fully, as some of B.B.
proposals of resolving shame are not really helpful for traumatised clients
who are deeply buried in shame.
I think that shame is so important and rich topic, and there are so
interesting cultural specifics regarding reasons and expressions of shame.
We need to be aware of these cross-cultural subtleties.
I hope to hear more from our forum members.
Best regards
<http://au.linkedin.com/in/haniagorski>
Hania Gorski, Melbourne
Psychologist, Relationship Coach, Systemic Therapist Mobile: +61 400 225
357 <tel:+61 400 225 357>
Email: haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx>
Website: www.wholerelationships.com www.familysystemic.com
www.integritysources.com <http://www.wholerelationships.com
www.familysystemic.com www.integritysources.com>
The world, I¹ve come to think, is like the surface of a frozen lake. We walk
along, we slip, we try to keep our balance and not to fall. One day, there¹s
a crack, and so we learn that underneath us is an unimaginable depth.
James Joyce
On 15 March 2016 at 22:16, 'Cristina Casanova' krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Learning to stay with the affect of shame in the body, and discharging the
emotion without reacting, finding a creative answers gives me an immense
freedom to be.
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 4:10 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
Thanks for that Cristina
You have given us Tomkins description of what elicits the affect of shame and
I think it is a great starting point.
If as constellation practitioners we understood affect/ emotions better we
could do a much better job.
Personally I do have some problems with Tomkins theory. Firstly the word shame
is far too strong for most people and they automatically equate it with a
toxic form of shame where it spirals out of control in much the same way as
anxiety can when it becomes panic. So "shame" is a difficult word. A better
word for the mild version of that feeling is dampening as in "His excitement
was dampened." We can intuitively tell that this is accurate because when we
say someone is shameless we mean they won't let go of their excitement, they
won't admit they have made a mistake.
With the word dampening, it is now much more possible to see the adaptive
value of shame. Then it is much more possible to have a sensible discussion.
It is then possible to see there is a mild version of shame called dampening
which has a lot of qualities that are identical to the severe form called
shame or humiliation. Both slow us down physically and cognitively. Dampening
helps us to step back and take stock and then act more skillfully. Shame can
paralyse us.
Despite this shame feels quite different to dampening just as panic feels
quite different to mild anxiety. The way to deal with panic is to develop a
friendly relationship with anxiety. The way to deal with shame is to develop a
friendly relationship with dampening.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425 <tel:%2B61%20%280%293%C2%A09420%201425>
www.cwalsh.com.au <http://www.cwalsh.com.au/>
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:13 PM, 'Cristina Casanova' krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Shame is an affect wired into the nervous system. It happens when joy and
interest are interrupted and it is felt by people in different degrees.
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 8:42 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
Hi Chris,
I am not so sure about ³shameless is untrustworthy². The colloquial use of
shameless is perhaps someone who will not hold back in the face of possible
disapproval or rejection. That may not make them unloving and therefore
untrustworthy.
Buddhism not with standing, could it be that shame is an unequivocal sign of
trauma? Would the healthy, happy and wise still need the intense fear of shame
or self rejection as an impulse control mechanism? Shall we throw out that
baby, bathwater and all?
Best wishes,
Robert
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Thanks Cristina
Sylvan Tomkins and his followers including Donald Nathanson are the only
people I know who define shame in a meaningful way when they talk about it.
Without a definition much of the conversation about shame ends up being a
series of misunderstandings where people are talking cross purposes.
Tomkins describes shame as being a flattening emotion (or affect to be
precise) that makes us lose energy, makes us clumsy and stops us from thinking
clearly. Despite that, like all of our emotions, it has adaptive value. It
dampens our excitement when it is misdirected. There is a linguistic clue to
that when we look at the word "shameless".
Someone who is shameless is untrustworthy because they don't pay any attention
to social constraints. Shame is important for socialisation and fitting into
groups. Of course it can be misused to beat people into shape but let's not
commit the error of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
It is interesting that Steve who is working with Asian cultures raised this
topic. Asian cultures are less individualistic and prioritise collective
wellbeing. As such they treat shaming more delicately. They are very aware of
it in the concept of "face". Saving face is extremely important for the
Chinese. Causing someone to lose face is a very serious matter.
Unfortunately we in the West have gone from ignoring shame to demonising it -
especially in therapeutic circles. As far as I am concerned that is still a
very primitive response. Shame needs to be integrated, to be given a place and
included and to be valued as an adaptive emotion. Only then can we have a
healthy relationship with shame - Sounds like a constellation doesn't it!
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425 <tel:%2B61%20%280%293%C2%A09420%201425>
www.cwalsh.com.au <http://www.cwalsh.com.au/>
