Dear Chris, and all,
As a facilitator from oriental culture, I would like to add something to Shame
topic.
Oriental culture is usually labeled as shame culture, contrasting to western
guilt culture by academics.
My own observation for our culture:
1. Shame is equivalent to guilt from the perspective of conscience. Usually the
expression is shame-guilt complex, and that’s actually the literal translation
in our language.
2. Shame is usually paired up with Honour. e.g. if one’s deed is considered
“wrong” or deviated from common understanding of society, he/she may be
dishonoring his/her family and ancestors. If one’s deed is contributing to
prosperity of a group, he/she may be considered honoring his/her family and
ancestors.
3. Both victims and perpetrators may also experience shame feeling. Whether
shame is healthy or not may depend on if their attitude is facing or avoiding.
Victims experience shame of not taking their own responsibility, and lead to
rectifying action, this is healthy. Victims feel shame and hide away further
from crowd (e.g. being raped, being homosexual etc.), it is unhealthy.
Perpetrators experience shame and understand their harm to other, then they bow
to victims, this is healthy. Perpetrators experience shame, try to deny the
truth, and turn away, this is unhealthy.
Cheers.
Fung
在 2016年3月16日，上午5:39，'Jonine Lee Gabay' satoribreath@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 写道：
Dear Chris, Hania and others
Zaquie I agree with you on the value of Bradshaws work and its a great
discussion helpful for us all. My understanding of the two types of Shame
came from study and work with John Bradshaw and his non shaming therapeutic
model for Innerchild work. His work in ‘Healing the Shame that Binds Us’ is
so valuable for understanding the entanglements and enmeshments that happen
as a consequence of shaming. While I love the work of Brene Brown his work
takes a deeper look at the darker aspects of shame.
Understanding the difference between healthy shame and toxic shame can at
times be challenging and so subtle, shame based people cover shame with
shameless shaming disguised in many ways and often as ‘love and caring’(often
completely unconscious of this) When shame is toxic, it is an
excruciatingly painful experience of unexpected exposure, as being seen as
flawed and defective, less than. It divides us from ourselves and from others
and any possibility of true connection and intimacy in relationship, when it
is triggered it sets off many of the responses you mentioned Chris.
Everyone needs a sense of shame, but no one needs to feel ashamed. ―Frederick
Nietzsche
The psychologist Erik Erikson talks about the psychosocial task during the
developmental stage of counter dependence being to strike a balance between
autonomy and shame and doubt, the full affect of shame experienced as limits
put on child’s need to separate and do things his or her own way. With
healthy caregivers this is encouraged with boundaries and limits and mistakes
are corrected in a loving caring way and reassurance given that the behaviour
isn’t ok, shame based parents with their own experience of feeling flawed
and defective will treat the child with disdain not separating the behaviour
from the child.
“Shame is a natural feeling that, when allowed to function well, monitors a
person's sense of excitement or pleasure. Healthy shame is an emotion that
teaches us about our limits. Like all emotions, shame moves us to get our
basic needs met. But when the feeling of shame is violated by a coercive and
perfectionistic religion and culture―especially by shame-based source figures
―it becomes an all-embracing identity.”
A person with internalized shame (toxic) believes he is inherently flawed,
inferior and defective. Such a feeling is so painful that defending scripts
(or strategies) are developed to cover it up. These scripts are the roots of
violence, criminality, war and all forms of addiction.” (Bradshaw, Healing
the Shame that binds us, more than 25 yrs ago references Sylvan Thomkins
model)
Bradshaw also shares below from the earliest known writing on shame.
The earliest treatise on shame was written by Annnibale Pocaterra, born in
1562. Awareness of Pocaterra's book, Two Dialogues on Shame, came from Donald
Nathanson's comprehensive book Shame and Pride. According to Nathanson,
Pocaterra wrote his book on shame at age thirty. His book was the only
scholarly work on shame until Darwin wrote about it three hundred years
later. Pocaterra died a few months after publishing his book. (see Shame and
Pride, pages 443–445).
In the beginning of his book, Pocaterra tells us that 'in the end shame
is a good thing, a part of everyday existence.' Shame, according to
Pocaterra, makes us timorous, humble and contrite and causes outrage against
the self.
When we are attacked by shame, Pocaterra says we 'would like nothing
better than to run and hide from the eyes of the world.' He also describes
shame as the 'fear of infamy,' which can lead a person to attack his enemy
with passion. Shame is thus capable of both cowardice and bravery. Long
before Silvan Tomkins's treatise on shame, Pocaterra posited that our
emotions are innate and that 'they are only good or evil as the end to which
they are used.' There is an innate and a learned component to all emotion.
'Therefore,' Pocaterra writes, 'there must be two shames, one natural and
free from awareness and the other acquired.'
Pocaterra understood shame to be our teacher. He thought the shame of
children was like a seed that will become a small plant in youth and leads to
virtue at maturity. Pocaterra looked at blushing as the external sign of
shame and believed that blushing was both the recognition of having made a
mistake as well as the desire to make amends. Three hundred years later
Darwin would posit blushing as that which distinguishes us from all other
animals. Darwin knew that the mother of the blush was shame. For Darwin,
shame defines our essential humanity. Silvan Tomkins views shame as an innate
feeling that limits our experience of interest, curiosity and pleasure.
We could discuss this topic for a year and never exhausted its value! Thanks
everyone, and always your good questions Vinay
Jonine
Jonine Lee Gabay
Mindfulness based Breathwork Therapy I Family Constellations I Counselling I
Coaching I NLP
M 0402 067 024 I E jonine@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:jonine@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> I W
www.coreconnectiontrainings.com <http://www.coreconnectiontrainings.com/>
"Walking, I am listening to a deeper way. Suddenly all my ancestors are
behind me.
Be still, they say. Watch and listen. You are the result of the love of
thousands.""Walking, I am listening to a deeper way. Suddenly all my
ancestors are behind me. Be still, they say. Watch and listen. You are the
result of the love of thousands."
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
Sent: Wednesday, 16 March 2016 4:12 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
Dear Hania and all,
I entirely agree with Hania about shame. Id like to add that I find one of
the greatest pleasure of the “ predator” is to keep the other one “ small”
and Full of shame. Small.
Even though the mistake may be small…but the tendency is to dominate the
other one thru “ shame”. You will be punished…and continue to be punished…
Pay your errors…
It is easy to see the “ predator” in us. If we have a tendency to keep the
other one “ small” and “ paying for his mistakes” even the small ones. We
feel “ on top” and the other “ submissive”
Whatever “ the error” .
Shame is instilled.
One of the greatest book on shame I have ever read is “ Healing the Shame
that Binds You” by John Bradshaw and that helped me a lot.
Zaquie C Meredith, Sao Paulo, Brazil
www.zaquie.com <http://www.zaquie.com/>
zaquie@xxxxxxxxxx <mailto:zaquie@xxxxxxxxxx>
(011) 979978808 (Vivo)
www.facebook/com/zaquie.meredith <http://www.facebook/com/zaquie.meredith>
Linkedin.com/in/zaquie <http://linkedin.com/in/zaquie>
youtube:zaquiemeredith
twitter:zaquiemeredith
From: <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> on behalf of "Leslie Nipps
lnipps@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:lnipps@xxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]"
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx <mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Reply-To: <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Date: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 at 1:38 PM
To: Constellation Talk <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
I just got a great deal out of the dialogue between Hania and Chris, so thank
you! I can feel the systemic connection between shame and what Hania is
calling humility. Can’t we all remember a representation in which we were
resisting, resisting shame, and then we let go, and there is was, the bliss
of humility in its place? So, they are surely connected. Whether more like
the way Hania describes it, or as Chris describes it (dampening as a lesser
form of shame—connected to humility perhaps?), I think we can all feel the
systemic desires hidden in shame, and how it can be a gift if we look for
them.
Having said all that, there is a great difference between all this and using
shaming systematically with a client - I think we have two different
conversations overlapping here (one about the systemics of shame, and one
about using shame as a facilitator tool). I can say that systemically, the
role of shaming the client at a recent Hellinger event was less about the
client per se, and more about influencing the larger group. One never knew if
the next client was going to be the love-bombed one, or the shamed one. And
it led to lots of interesting compliance behaviors from both clients and the
rest of the gathering. People who don’t see it as shaming will argue
vociferously that it’s very good for the client who wasn’t “ready” (or some
such). Even considering that it might mean something different can be very
upsetting for people who have a lot of emotional well-being caught up in the
“goodness” of the leader. I think it’s more about a leader and their
followers, than it is about an attempt at a meaningful client intervention.
Peace, Leslie
The Rev. Leslie Nipps
NLP & Family Constellations Practitioner
“Trust as a Way of Life…”
www.leslienipps.com <http://www.leslienipps.com/>
Co-Director, 2015 North American Systemic Constellations Conference in San
Diego on November 12-15.
Visit ConstellateUs.com/conference2015
<http://constellateus.com/conference2015> for more information
On Mar 15, 2016, at 6:35 AM, Hania Gorski haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx
<mailto:haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Hi Chris and All,
I would like to bring the point, that there are different concepts of shame,
and different definitions.
Chris, I respectfully disagree with you - I see that it's a kind of your
definition, or interpretation of shame, as looking at "adaptive" and
"healthy" function of shame.
I see the topic you're describing - as a misconstruction of mixing shame with
humbleness.
The ritual of bowing has nothing in common with shame and it's actually
opposite - it's gentle, humble respect and acknowledgement of being small
(yes, shrinking from being too big, a very healthy process). That is
description of being humble, not shamed.
Humbleness is healthy and adaptive, and facilitates deep growth.
Shame - in my opinion, and my therapeutic/facilitator experience - is never a
good motivator as it's impossible to bring any real goodness by imposing
negativity, like cleaning a floor with a dirty cloth.
It always brings a sense of isolation, alienation, separation, not connection.
Shame stands next to fear and guilt and rejection, and it was used along with
all these negative "tools" as an effective social control/power weapon
(sometimes deadly) in the history of human kind, and it is still used. It
was/is also widely used in raising children to make them obedient and
disconnected from themselves in order to serve adult society purposes.
Shame is also inseparable from family "dirty" secrets, sexual abuse trauma,
and domestic violence.
Shame is a toxic tool of domination in relationships, separating people from
each other, and from Love, therefore it's against Orders of Love. That's my
definition.
No surprise that we deal with shame in constellation work; from the
beginning, in a process of offering clients constellation, we see facets of
shame in family system - visible even in our clients' resistance to work in a
group setting.
Groups/constellation workshops are potential theatres of shame and
retraumatisation, so it is so extremely important for the facilitator to be
aware of these dynamics, and to not step into/re-create the shame space. The
Knowing Field is also a potential mining field.
Thanks Robert for posting the link to Vivien Broughton article about ethics
in constellation facilitation - what she listed as good qualities of a
facilitator, emphasises importance of navigating through the constellation
process in such way that doesn't deepen shame and doesn't retraumatise
clients (and representatives).
I'd like to respond also to the beginning of this thread when someone asked
about experiences with shame in constellations.
I had a very interesting and learning experience as a representative; I was
representing a father of the client; this father was a son of a man who was
caught up as a paedophile.
While I was standing in my representative role, I've experienced few feelings
and body sensations/movements. One of the leading feelings was an enormous
shame, felt as unforgivable guilt/shame and alienation; my body was heavy
under these feelings, like a lifeless heavy bag, and my eyes were glued to
the floor.
Unfortunately, the facilitator didn't ask for my report as a representative
for a long time (even if the main enquiry from the client was about her
relationship with her father whom I was representing).
The facilitator was stating aloud that the father is looking at dead, and
bringing representative for dead. Later on, when it was not leading anywhere,
I was asked for the report, and I stated my feelings of shame (with few
others). When the shame was brought and acknowledged, a process of healing
begun, and gradually I could see my daughter. That was bringing a further
healing to the daughter.
I'd like to respond also to someone mentioning prof. Brene Brown, a
researcher of vulnerability and shame. I love her concepts and presentations,
she brings a lot of new air to understanding of social dynamics of shame and
vulnerability in society and culture. She clearly distinguishes shame from
humbleness, and her research proves that shame damages and alienates people.
Her antidote to shame - in short - is courage and authenticity, which implies
humbleness and acceptance of our imperfections.
Her findings are great in a broad social context as Brene Brown focuses
mainly on social/cultural/gender context of shame (she is a professor of
social work at Texas University).
She calls herself a shame researcher, but unfortunately she doesn't go to
shame issues in a trauma/family system context.
That area of shame still awaits to be explored fully, as some of B.B.
proposals of resolving shame are not really helpful for traumatised clients
who are deeply buried in shame.
I think that shame is so important and rich topic, and there are so
interesting cultural specifics regarding reasons and expressions of shame. We
need to be aware of these cross-cultural subtleties.
I hope to hear more from our forum members.
Best regards
<http://au.linkedin.com/in/haniagorski>
Hania Gorski, Melbourne
Psychologist, Relationship Coach, Systemic Therapist
Mobile: +61 400 225 357 <tel:+61%20400%20225%20357>
Email: haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx <mailto:haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx>
Website: www.wholerelationships.com www.familysystemic.com
www.integritysources.com
<http://www.wholerelationships.com%20%20www.familysystemic.com%20%20www.integritysources.com/>
The world, I’ve come to think, is like the surface of a frozen lake. We walk
along, we slip, we try to keep our balance and not to fall. One day, there’s
a crack, and so we learn that underneath us — is an unimaginable depth.
James Joyce
On 15 March 2016 at 22:16, 'Cristina Casanova' krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Learning to stay with the affect of shame in the body, and discharging the
emotion without reacting, finding a creative answers gives me an immense
freedom to be.
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
Sent: Tuesday, March 15, 2016 4:10 AM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
Thanks for that Cristina
You have given us Tomkins description of what elicits the affect of shame
and I think it is a great starting point.
If as constellation practitioners we understood affect/ emotions better we
could do a much better job.
Personally I do have some problems with Tomkins theory. Firstly the word
shame is far too strong for most people and they automatically equate it
with a toxic form of shame where it spirals out of control in much the same
way as anxiety can when it becomes panic. So "shame" is a difficult word. A
better word for the mild version of that feeling is dampening as in "His
excitement was dampened." We can intuitively tell that this is accurate
because when we say someone is shameless we mean they won't let go of their
excitement, they won't admit they have made a mistake.
With the word dampening, it is now much more possible to see the adaptive
value of shame. Then it is much more possible to have a sensible discussion.
It is then possible to see there is a mild version of shame called dampening
which has a lot of qualities that are identical to the severe form called
shame or humiliation. Both slow us down physically and cognitively.
Dampening helps us to step back and take stock and then act more skillfully.
Shame can paralyse us.
Despite this shame feels quite different to dampening just as panic feels
quite different to mild anxiety. The way to deal with panic is to develop a
friendly relationship with anxiety. The way to deal with shame is to develop
a friendly relationship with dampening.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425 <tel:%2B61%20%280%293%C2%A09420%201425>
www.cwalsh.com.au <http://www.cwalsh.com.au/>
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:13 PM, 'Cristina Casanova' krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Shame is an affect wired into the nervous system. It happens when joy and
interest are interrupted and it is felt by people in different degrees.
From: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
[mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ;
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
Sent: Monday, March 14, 2016 8:42 PM
To: ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Subject: Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
Hi Chris,
I am not so sure about “shameless is untrustworthy”. The colloquial use of
shameless is perhaps someone who will not hold back in the face of possible
disapproval or rejection. That may not make them unloving and therefore
untrustworthy.
Buddhism not with standing, could it be that shame is an unequivocal sign of
trauma? Would the healthy, happy and wise still need the intense fear of
shame or self rejection as an impulse control mechanism? Shall we throw out
that baby, bathwater and all?
Best wishes,
Robert
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> [ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>> wrote:
Thanks Cristina
Sylvan Tomkins and his followers including Donald Nathanson are the only
people I know who define shame in a meaningful way when they talk about it.
Without a definition much of the conversation about shame ends up being a
series of misunderstandings where people are talking cross purposes.
Tomkins describes shame as being a flattening emotion (or affect to be
precise) that makes us lose energy, makes us clumsy and stops us from
thinking clearly. Despite that, like all of our emotions, it has adaptive
value. It dampens our excitement when it is misdirected. There is a
linguistic clue to that when we look at the word "shameless".
Someone who is shameless is untrustworthy because they don't pay any
attention to social constraints. Shame is important for socialisation and
fitting into groups. Of course it can be misused to beat people into shape
but let's not commit the error of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
It is interesting that Steve who is working with Asian cultures raised this
topic. Asian cultures are less individualistic and prioritise collective
wellbeing. As such they treat shaming more delicately. They are very aware
of it in the concept of "face". Saving face is extremely important for the
Chinese. Causing someone to lose face is a very serious matter.
Unfortunately we in the West have gone from ignoring shame to demonising it
- especially in therapeutic circles. As far as I am concerned that is still
a very primitive response. Shame needs to be integrated, to be given a place
and included and to be valued as an adaptive emotion. Only then can we have
a healthy relationship with shame - Sounds like a constellation doesn't it!
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425 <tel:%2B61%20%280%293%C2%A09420%201425>
www.cwalsh.com.au <http://www.cwalsh.com.au/>
