“healthy dealing with shame means to face it and acknowledge it. It means
letting go of the toxic avoidance reactions of attacking other, attacking
self, avoiding other or avoiding self. These just bind you deeper into
toxic shame. The empathic therapist can be very helpful in this process. It
also means embracing the reparative aspect of healthy shame.”
Hi Chris and All,
Indeed we are having a good look at this shame issue. Most of your
reflections make good sense to me. The only point where I would welcome a
little clarification is that of ‘healthy shame”. Feeling regret, feeling
that one has made a mistake, not wishing to repeat mistakes or cause hurt
– these are clear motives. Considering how close they are and how easy it
is to turn “healthy” shame into toxic shame, is using the expression
“healthy shame” a good idea? My fundamental concern is that somehow this
easy mix up will obscure the self dividing and controlling potential of
shame.
More recently Brené Brown has sharpened the focus on these very different
yet easily confused concepts by re-labelling them in ways that feel not
only more accurate but much less murky and open to
interpretation/confusion. What has been described as toxic shame is what
Brown merely calls *shame*. And she calls healthy shame what it actually
is, which is *guilt*. Brown also makes it clear that feeling guilty can
absolutely be a healthy thing, as this emotion can and often does lead to
positive behaviour change.
Best wishes,
Robert
On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi all
What a wonderful and rich conversation!
The Western Shame Guilt literature is really messed up by the fact that
almost no thought is given to definitions and the authors assume we all
understand the same things by these words. Clearly we don't. This is
particularly so in the shame culture versus guilt culture literature.
It is useful to start with Bert Hellinger's revolutionary way of thinking
about guilt. Instead of seeing the feeling of guilt as being about legally
or morally right or wrong he reconceptualised guilt as something that
arises when our belonging is threatened. Once he gave examples it made
complete sense and this definition was liberating!
So guilt arises when belonging is threatened much the same as pain arises
when our physical body is under attack. Both of these are warning signals .
They both have emotions associated with them but they are not really
emotions or affects in and of themselves. Guilt elicits the emotions of
anxiety and shame just as pain elicits the emotions of distress and fear.
So dividing cultures into shame cultures and guilt cultures never really
made sense.They are chalk and cheese. I think this is why the idea never
really caught on with the general public.
What does make sense is that there are shame affirming and shame denying
cultures, with the West falling into the latter. In either culture, shame
can be misused to bully people into submission. That then fits with Fung
seeing shame as equivalent to guilt in the Eastern cultures. Shame is
simply more palpable as the emotional response to guilt than it is in the
West where people are more tuned in to the anxiety response.
I agree that honour is the opposite of toxic shame. In the west pride is
more seen as the opposite of shame. That difference is because honour, as
Fung describes it, refers to relationships, whereas pride is more of an
individualistic notion.
Fung gives us the clue that healthy dealing with shame means to face it
and acknowledge it. It means letting go of the toxic avoidance reactions of
attacking other, attacking self, avoiding other or avoiding self. These
just bind you deeper into toxic shame. The empathic therapist can be very
helpful in this process. It also means embracing the reparative aspect of
healthy shame. Without this the person who has experienced toxic shame will
always be prone to going back into toxic shame and they will never be truly
resilient. To help with the process of embracing healthy shame, a clear
minded therapist can be very helpful. A therapist can only be empathic
enough and clear minded enough to help others in this way, if they have
already cleared their own toxic shame, and learnt to embrace
dampening/healthy shame.If you have done that then you will have the
capacity to deal elegantly with these issues when they arise in
constellations.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425
www.cwalsh.com.au
On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 9:10 AM, lap fung cheng ahfung@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Dear Chris, and all,
As a facilitator from oriental culture, I would like to add something to
Shame topic.
Oriental culture is usually labeled as shame culture, contrasting to
western guilt culture by academics.
My own observation for our culture:
1. Shame is equivalent to guilt from the perspective of conscience.
Usually the expression is shame-guilt complex, and that’s actually the
literal translation in our language.
2. Shame is usually paired up with Honour. e.g. if one’s deed is
considered “wrong” or deviated from common understanding of society, he/she
may be dishonoring his/her family and ancestors. If one’s deed is
contributing to prosperity of a group, he/she may be considered honoring
his/her family and ancestors.
3. Both victims and perpetrators may also experience shame feeling.
Whether shame is healthy or not may depend on if their attitude is facing
or avoiding. Victims experience shame of not taking their own
responsibility, and lead to rectifying action, this is healthy. Victims
feel shame and hide away further from crowd (e.g. being raped, being
homosexual etc.), it is unhealthy. Perpetrators experience shame and
understand their harm to other, then they bow to victims, this is healthy.
Perpetrators experience shame, try to deny the truth, and turn away, this
is unhealthy.
Cheers.
Fung
在 2016年3月16日，上午5:39，'Jonine Lee Gabay' satoribreath@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk] <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> 写道：
Dear Chris, Hania and others
Zaquie I agree with you on the value of Bradshaws work and its a great
discussion helpful for us all. My understanding of the two types of Shame
came from study and work with John Bradshaw and his non shaming therapeutic
model for Innerchild work. His work in ‘Healing the Shame that Binds Us’
is so valuable for understanding the entanglements and enmeshments that
happen as a consequence of shaming. While I love the work of Brene Brown
his work takes a deeper look at the darker aspects of shame.
Understanding the difference between healthy shame and toxic shame can at
times be challenging and so subtle, shame based people cover shame with
shameless shaming disguised in many ways and often as ‘love and
caring’(often completely unconscious of this) When shame is toxic, it is
an excruciatingly painful experience of unexpected exposure, as being seen
as flawed and defective, less than. It divides us from ourselves and from
others and any possibility of true connection and intimacy in
relationship, when it is triggered it sets off many of the responses you
mentioned Chris.
Everyone needs a sense of shame, but no one needs to feel ashamed.
―Frederick Nietzsche
The psychologist Erik Erikson talks about the psychosocial task during
the developmental stage of counter dependence being to strike a balance
between autonomy and shame and doubt, the full affect of shame experienced
as limits put on child’s need to separate and do things his or her own
way. With healthy caregivers this is encouraged with boundaries and limits
and mistakes are corrected in a loving caring way and reassurance given
that the behaviour isn’t ok, shame based parents with their own experience
of feeling flawed and defective will treat the child with disdain not
separating the behaviour from the child.
“Shame is a natural feeling that, when allowed to function well, monitors
a person's sense of excitement or pleasure. Healthy shame is an emotion
that teaches us about our limits. Like all emotions, shame moves us to get
our basic needs met. But when the feeling of shame is violated by a
coercive and perfectionistic religion and culture―especially by shame-based
source figures ―it becomes an all-embracing identity.”
A person with internalized shame (toxic) believes he is inherently
flawed, inferior and defective. Such a feeling is so painful that defending
scripts (or strategies) are developed to cover it up. These scripts are the
roots of violence, criminality, war and all forms of addiction.”
(Bradshaw, Healing the Shame that binds us, more than 25 yrs ago references
Sylvan Thomkins model)
Bradshaw also shares below from the earliest known writing on shame.
The earliest treatise on shame was written by Annnibale Pocaterra, born
in 1562. Awareness of Pocaterra's book, Two Dialogues on Shame, came from
Donald Nathanson's comprehensive book Shame and Pride. According to
Nathanson, Pocaterra wrote his book on shame at age thirty. His book was
the only scholarly work on shame until Darwin wrote about it three hundred
years later. Pocaterra died a few months after publishing his book. (see
Shame and Pride, pages 443–445).
In the beginning of his book, Pocaterra tells us that 'in the end
shame is a good thing, a part of everyday existence.' Shame, according to
Pocaterra, makes us timorous, humble and contrite and causes outrage
against the self.
When we are attacked by shame, Pocaterra says we 'would like nothing
better than to run and hide from the eyes of the world.' He also describes
shame as the 'fear of infamy,' which can lead a person to attack his enemy
with passion. Shame is thus capable of both cowardice and bravery. Long
before Silvan Tomkins's treatise on shame, Pocaterra posited that our
emotions are innate and that 'they are only good or evil as the end to
which they are used.' There is an innate and a learned component to all
emotion. 'Therefore,' Pocaterra writes, 'there must be two shames, one
natural and free from awareness and the other acquired.'
Pocaterra understood shame to be our teacher. He thought the shame of
children was like a seed that will become a small plant in youth and leads
to virtue at maturity. Pocaterra looked at blushing as the external sign of
shame and believed that blushing was both the recognition of having made a
mistake as well as the desire to make amends. Three hundred years later
Darwin would posit blushing as that which distinguishes us from all other
animals. Darwin knew that the mother of the blush was shame. For Darwin,
shame defines our essential humanity. Silvan Tomkins views shame as an
innate feeling that limits our experience of interest, curiosity and
pleasure.
We could discuss this topic for a year and never exhausted its value!
Thanks everyone, and always your good questions Vinay
Jonine
Jonine Lee Gabay
Mindfulness based Breathwork Therapy *I* Family Constellations I
Counselling *I *Coaching I NLP
M 0402 067 024 I E jonine@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx I W
www.coreconnectiontrainings.com
*"Walking, I am listening to a deeper way. Suddenly all my ancestors are
behind me. *
*Be still, they say. Watch and listen. You are the result of the love of
thousands.""Walking, I am listening to a deeper way. Suddenly all my
ancestors are behind me. Be still, they say. Watch and listen. You are the
result of the love of thousands."*
*From:* ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [
mailto:ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]
*Sent:* Wednesday, 16 March 2016 4:12 AM
*To:* ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
Dear Hania and all,
I entirely agree with Hania about shame. Id like to add that I find one
of the greatest pleasure of the “ predator” is to keep the other one “
small” and Full of shame. Small.
Even though the mistake may be small…but the tendency is to dominate the
other one thru “ shame”. You will be punished…and continue to be punished…
Pay your errors…
It is easy to see the “ predator” in us. If we have a tendency to keep
the other one “ small” and “ paying for his mistakes” even the small ones.
We feel “ on top” and the other “ submissive”
Whatever “ the error” .
Shame is instilled.
One of the greatest book on shame I have ever read is “ Healing the Shame
that Binds You” by John Bradshaw and that helped me a lot.
Zaquie C Meredith, Sao Paulo, Brazil
www.zaquie.com
zaquie@xxxxxxxxxx
(011) 979978808 (Vivo)
www.facebook/com/zaquie.meredith
Linkedin.com/in/zaquie <http://linkedin.com/in/zaquie>
youtube:zaquiemeredith
twitter:zaquiemeredith
*From: *<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> on behalf of "Leslie Nipps
lnipps@xxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk]" <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Reply-To: *<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Date: *Tuesday, March 15, 2016 at 1:38 PM
*To: *Constellation Talk <ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
*Subject: *Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
I just got a great deal out of the dialogue between Hania and Chris, so
thank you! I can feel the systemic connection between shame and what Hania
is calling humility. Can’t we all remember a representation in which we
were resisting, resisting shame, and then we let go, and there is was, the
bliss of humility in its place? So, they are surely connected. Whether more
like the way Hania describes it, or as Chris describes it (dampening as a
lesser form of shame—connected to humility perhaps?), I think we can all
feel the systemic desires hidden in shame, and how it can be a gift if we
look for them.
Having said all that, there is a great difference between all this and
using shaming systematically with a client - I think we have two different
conversations overlapping here (one about the systemics of shame, and one
about using shame as a facilitator tool). I can say that systemically, the
role of shaming the client at a recent Hellinger event was less about the
client per se, and more about influencing the larger group. One never knew
if the next client was going to be the love-bombed one, or the shamed one.
And it led to lots of interesting compliance behaviors from both clients
and the rest of the gathering. People who don’t see it as shaming will
argue vociferously that it’s very good for the client who wasn’t “ready”
(or some such). Even considering that it might mean something different can
be very upsetting for people who have a lot of emotional well-being caught
up in the “goodness” of the leader. I think it’s more about a leader and
their followers, than it is about an attempt at a meaningful client
intervention.
Peace, Leslie
The Rev. Leslie Nipps
NLP & Family Constellations Practitioner
“Trust as a Way of Life…”
www.leslienipps.com
Co-Director, 2015 North American Systemic Constellations Conference in
San Diego on November 12-15.
Visit ConstellateUs.com/conference2015
<http://constellateus.com/conference2015> for more information
On Mar 15, 2016, at 6:35 AM, Hania Gorski haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Hi Chris and All,
I would like to bring the point, that there are different concepts of
shame, and different definitions.
Chris, I respectfully disagree with you - I see that it's a kind of your
definition, or interpretation of shame, as looking at "adaptive" and
"healthy" function of shame.
I see the topic you're describing - as a misconstruction of mixing shame
with humbleness.
The ritual of bowing has nothing in common with shame and it's actually
opposite - it's gentle, humble respect and acknowledgement of being small
(yes, shrinking from being too big, a very healthy process). That is
description of being humble, not shamed.
Humbleness is healthy and adaptive, and facilitates deep growth.
Shame - in my opinion, and my therapeutic/facilitator experience - is
never a good motivator as it's impossible to bring any real goodness by
imposing negativity, like cleaning a floor with a dirty cloth.
It always brings a sense of isolation, alienation, separation, not
connection.
Shame stands next to fear and guilt and rejection, and it was used along
with all these negative "tools" as an effective social control/power weapon
(sometimes deadly) in the history of human kind, and it is still used. It
was/is also widely used in raising children to make them obedient and
disconnected from themselves in order to serve adult society purposes.
Shame is also inseparable from family "dirty" secrets, sexual abuse
trauma, and domestic violence.
Shame is a toxic tool of domination in relationships, separating people
from each other, and from Love, therefore it's against Orders of Love.
That's my definition.
No surprise that we deal with shame in constellation work; from the
beginning, in a process of offering clients constellation, we see facets of
shame in family system - visible even in our clients' resistance to work in
a group setting.
Groups/constellation workshops are potential theatres of shame and
retraumatisation, so it is so extremely important for the facilitator to be
aware of these dynamics, and to not step into/re-create the shame space.
The Knowing Field is also a potential mining field.
Thanks Robert for posting the link to Vivien Broughton article about
ethics in constellation facilitation - what she listed as good qualities of
a facilitator, emphasises importance of navigating through the
constellation process in such way that doesn't deepen shame and doesn't
retraumatise clients (and representatives).
I'd like to respond also to the beginning of this thread when someone
asked about experiences with shame in constellations.
I had a very interesting and learning experience as a representative; I
was representing a father of the client; this father was a son of a man who
was caught up as a paedophile.
While I was standing in my representative role, I've experienced few
feelings and body sensations/movements. One of the leading feelings was an
enormous shame, felt as unforgivable guilt/shame and alienation; my body
was heavy under these feelings, like a lifeless heavy bag, and my eyes were
glued to the floor.
Unfortunately, the facilitator didn't ask for my report as a
representative for a long time (even if the main enquiry from the client
was about her relationship with her father whom I was representing).
The facilitator was stating aloud that the father is looking at dead, and
bringing representative for dead. Later on, when it was not leading
anywhere, I was asked for the report, and I stated my feelings of shame
(with few others). When the shame was brought and acknowledged, a process
of healing begun, and gradually I could see my daughter. That was bringing
a further healing to the daughter.
I'd like to respond also to someone mentioning prof. Brene Brown, a
researcher of vulnerability and shame. I love her concepts and
presentations, she brings a lot of new air to understanding of social
dynamics of shame and vulnerability in society and culture. She clearly
distinguishes shame from humbleness, and her research proves that shame
damages and alienates people. Her antidote to shame - in short - is courage
and authenticity, which implies humbleness and acceptance of our
imperfections.
Her findings are great in a broad social context as Brene Brown focuses
mainly on social/cultural/gender context of shame (she is a professor of
social work at Texas University).
She calls herself a shame researcher, but unfortunately she doesn't go to
shame issues in a trauma/family system context.
That area of shame still awaits to be explored fully, as some of B.B.
proposals of resolving shame are not really helpful for traumatised clients
who are deeply buried in shame.
I think that shame is so important and rich topic, and there are so
interesting cultural specifics regarding reasons and expressions of shame.
We need to be aware of these cross-cultural subtleties.
I hope to hear more from our forum members.
Best regards
[image: photo]
[image:
https://s3.amazonaws.com/images.wisestamp.com/icons_32/linkedin.png]
<http://au.linkedin.com/in/haniagorski>
*Hania Gorski, Melbourne*
Psychologist, Relationship Coach, Systemic Therapist
Mobile: +61 400 225 357 <+61%20400%20225%20357>
Email: haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx <haniagorski@xxxxxxxxx>
Website: www.wholerelationships.com www.familysystemic.com
www.integritysources.com
<http://www.wholerelationships.com%20%20www.familysystemic.com%20%20www.integritysources.com/>
*The world, I’ve come to think, is like the surface of a frozen lake. We
walk along, we slip, we try to keep our balance and not to fall. One day,
there’s a crack, and so we learn that underneath us — is an unimaginable
depth. *James Joyce
On 15 March 2016 at 22:16, 'Cristina Casanova' krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Learning to stay with the affect of shame in the body, and discharging
the emotion without reacting, finding a creative answers gives me an
immense freedom to be.
*From:* ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
*Sent:* Tuesday, March 15, 2016 4:10 AM
*To:* ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
Thanks for that Cristina
You have given us Tomkins description of what elicits the affect of shame
and I think it is a great starting point.
If as constellation practitioners we understood affect/ emotions better
we could do a much better job.
Personally I do have some problems with Tomkins theory. Firstly the word
shame is far too strong for most people and they automatically equate it
with a toxic form of shame where it spirals out of control in much the same
way as anxiety can when it becomes panic. So "shame" is a difficult word. A
better word for the mild version of that feeling is dampening as in "His
excitement was dampened." We can intuitively tell that this is accurate
because when we say someone is shameless we mean they won't let go of their
excitement, they won't admit they have made a mistake.
With the word dampening, it is now much more possible to see the
adaptive value of shame. Then it is much more possible to have a sensible
discussion. It is then possible to see there is a mild version of shame
called dampening which has a lot of qualities that are identical to the
severe form called shame or humiliation. Both slow us down physically and
cognitively. Dampening helps us to step back and take stock and then act
more skillfully. Shame can paralyse us.
Despite this shame feels quite different to dampening just as panic feels
quite different to mild anxiety. The way to deal with panic is to develop a
friendly relationship with anxiety. The way to deal with shame is to
develop a friendly relationship with dampening.
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425
www.cwalsh.com.au
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 12:13 PM, 'Cristina Casanova'
krsna-l@xxxxxxxxxxxxx [ConstellationTalk] <
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Shame is an affect wired into the nervous system. It happens when joy
and interest are interrupted and it is felt by people in different degrees.
*From:* ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx [mailto:
ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]
*Sent:* Monday, March 14, 2016 8:42 PM
*To:* ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
*Subject:* Re: [ConstellationTalk] Shame
Hi Chris,
I am not so sure about “shameless is untrustworthy”. The colloquial use
of shameless is perhaps someone who will not hold back in the face of
possible disapproval or rejection. That may not make them unloving and
therefore untrustworthy.
Buddhism not with standing, could it be that shame is an unequivocal sign
of trauma? Would the healthy, happy and wise still need the intense fear of
shame or self rejection as an impulse control mechanism? Shall we throw
out that baby, bathwater and all?
Best wishes,
Robert
On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Chris Walsh chris@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
[ConstellationTalk]
<ConstellationTalk@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Thanks Cristina
Sylvan Tomkins and his followers including Donald Nathanson are the only
people I know who define shame in a meaningful way when they talk about it.
Without a definition much of the conversation about shame ends up being a
series of misunderstandings where people are talking cross purposes.
Tomkins describes shame as being a flattening emotion (or affect to be
precise) that makes us lose energy, makes us clumsy and stops us from
thinking clearly. Despite that, like all of our emotions, it has adaptive
value. It dampens our excitement when it is misdirected. There is a
linguistic clue to that when we look at the word "shameless".
Someone who is shameless is untrustworthy because they don't pay any
attention to social constraints. Shame is important for socialisation and
fitting into groups. Of course it can be misused to beat people into shape
but let's not commit the error of throwing out the baby with the bathwater.
It is interesting that Steve who is working with Asian cultures raised
this topic. Asian cultures are less individualistic and prioritise
collective wellbeing. As such they treat shaming more delicately. They are
very aware of it in the concept of "face". Saving face is extremely
important for the Chinese. Causing someone to lose face is a very serious
matter.
Unfortunately we in the West have gone from ignoring shame to demonising
it - especially in therapeutic circles. As far as I am concerned that is
still a very primitive response. Shame needs to be integrated, to be given
a place and included and to be valued as an adaptive emotion. Only then
can we have a healthy relationship with shame - Sounds like a constellation
doesn't it!
Cheers
Chris Walsh
Melbourne, Australia
ph +61 (0)3 9420 1425
www.cwalsh.com.au
