[mac4theblind] Re: Strange and startling dream
- From: John Panarese <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: mac4theblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Mon, 23 Mar 2015 18:18:56 -0400
I'll ask again. Please stop with this topic. As I've said, I now have
people requesting I close it.
Take Care
John D. Panarese
Director
Mac for the Blind
Tel, (631) 724-4479
Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8 Mountain
Lion
AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
> On Mar 23, 2015, at 6:17 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> I already explained the reason I think the vast majority of IT professionals
> use Windows. The vast majority of computers in the world run Windows. The
> vast majority of servers run either Windows or linux. The percentage of
> computers in the world that run Mac OS is still very tiny.
>
> You keep claiming my facts are wrong but that is meaningless. It's a bit
> insulting for you to tell me I'm out of touch in one message and in another
> refuse to back up your opinions with any substantiation what so ever. If you
> are going to keep telling me I'm being stupid, you could at least provide
> some validation for your opinion.
> The reason it is unlikely that a 3rd party will develop a screen reader for
> Mac Os is that it would be difficult to sell a screen reader for an operating
> system that comes with a free screen reader. I'd have thought that would be
> obvious.
>
> On 03/23/2015 03:42 PM, John Panarese wrote:
>> No, it is true for all screen readers. At least, with Apple, it is Apple
>> supporting the screen reader. Development cycle or not, it gets updated.
>> With Windows, remember that they are third party developers bolting on their
>> screen reader to Microsoft Windows. They are at the mercy of Microsoft as
>> far as changes to the OS, and we've seen many times how that has gone.
>>
>> Honestly, based on your assumptions and comments, I think you need to
>> educate yourself quite bit on how this technology is going. You are making
>> statemements that I haven't read in years. Again, assuming most IT
>> professionals these days use only Windows is old news. Things are changing
>> and for good reason.
>>
>> Also, what makes you think another company won't develop a screen reader
>> for the Mac some day?
>>
>>
>> Take Care
>>
>> John D. Panarese
>> Director
>> Mac for the Blind
>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>
>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8 Mountain
>> Lion
>>
>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>
>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 4:29 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> But pointing out that someone could write another screen reader for Mac OS
>>> is not a point in favor of voiceover. The fact is that with voiceover, you
>>> are depending on the good will of Apple Incorporated. You arestuck with
>>> their release cycle and their willingness to fix bugs. That's not true for
>>> any of the other screen readers. Even jaws has it's own release cycle
>>> independent of Microsoft.
>>>
>>> On 03/23/2015 02:05 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>>> And I don’t think just because voiceover is built in that precludes other
>>>> people from entering the space. I myself wouldn’t want to compete with
>>>> Apple but that doesn’t mean someone else wouldn’t feel differently.
>>>>
>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 2:39 PM, John Panarese <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> No, I think having one company responsible for the OS and the screen
>>>>> reader is a much better long term solution. NVDA is open source and open
>>>>> to a community of developers. As I said, it has drawbacks compared to
>>>>> Window-Eyes and JAWS, and those limitations cannot be compared
>>>>> necessarily across platforms. In reality, all screen readers conceptual
>>>>> set out to do the same things, but on the Mac because of the Mac's
>>>>> stability and security, that alone gives it plenty of advantage over
>>>>> Windows.
>>>>>
>>>>> As for complex keyboard combination, know your screen reader. The same
>>>>> things can be said for Windows too. With VO, use Numpad Commander,
>>>>> Keyboard commander or a third party product like, Spark, and your
>>>>> complexity is simplified tremendously.
>>>>>
>>>>> The bottom line is I get work done on my Mac with VoiceOver and I don't
>>>>> fight with the OS. In Windows, half the time is spent dealing with the OS
>>>>> and Trying to get work done.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Take Care
>>>>>
>>>>> John D. Panarese
>>>>> Director
>>>>> Mac for the Blind
>>>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>>>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>>>>
>>>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8
>>>>> Mountain Lion
>>>>>
>>>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>>>
>>>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 2:28 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Oh, I forgot to mention ... I'm not sure that being integrated into the
>>>>>> operating system is a significant advantage. The main advantage appears
>>>>>> to be that it works right out of the box. There's no installation.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But are you prepared to say that voiceover works better than nvda? If
>>>>>> so, how? I mean, what does voiceover do better than nvda?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Being integrated into the operating system has it's drawbacks. For one,
>>>>>> voiceover has no competition. For better or worse, we're stuck with
>>>>>> voiceober and Apple's idea of accessibility. It does take some very
>>>>>> complicated key combinations to use voiceover. That's probably the
>>>>>> result of Apple not wanting voiceover to interfere with other operating
>>>>>> system functions. Some people have been critical of Apple's response
>>>>>> time when it comes to fixing bugs in voiceover. I've een bugs fixed the
>>>>>> same day they were reported in orca and nvda.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> To be clear, having voiceover come with an Apple product is a great
>>>>>> thing. If you're going to buy Apple products anyway, you don't have to
>>>>>> buy a screen reader. This is a terrific thing. But I'm not sure that
>>>>>> being integrated into the OS automatically makes voiceover better than
>>>>>> other screen readers. There is a difference between quality and value.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 03/23/2015 09:42 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>>>>>> And all are bolt on after thoughts. NVDA, JFW, WE, what ever they are
>>>>>>> all after thoughts compared to Voice Over which is integrated like any
>>>>>>> other feature in the OS.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is a free screen reader for Windows though. It's called nvda.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On 03/23/2015 08:57 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Actually, the Mac is not more expensive when you add in the cost of
>>>>>>>>> the screen reader. Remember you need to add a grand or so if you’re
>>>>>>>>> installing JFW on that new machine so add that to the cost. Voice
>>>>>>>>> Over is included for free so that cost is already covered.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Lena Contreras <contreras_lena@xxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Yes. My Mac is approaching five years old. When I had my other
>>>>>>>>>> windows laptops, when they were around four years old they would
>>>>>>>>>> start acting strangely. They would crash for no reason the speech
>>>>>>>>>> would stop working and I would have to reboot or other strange
>>>>>>>>>> things would happen. So far, my Mac is running fine. I know Friends
>>>>>>>>>> that have eight or nine-year-old Max that are running well but won't
>>>>>>>>>> support the latest OSX. When somebody's getting a new computer, I
>>>>>>>>>> recommend a Macintosh. But some of my friends are Fred to make the
>>>>>>>>>> switch because of having to relearn things. Also the Mac is more
>>>>>>>>>> expensive and they want to spend less on the computer. And some of
>>>>>>>>>> my computer geek friends don't like the "control "that Apple has.
>>>>>>>>>> Lena
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 5:31 AM, Scott Granados
>>>>>>>>>>> <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> +1 Microsoft has scarred me too. It’s hard to get over that level
>>>>>>>>>>> of bad design and lack of security.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2015, at 11:47 AM, John Panarese
>>>>>>>>>>>> <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, I keep having this nightmare that I still have to
>>>>>>>>>>>> use Windows to train a few clients, but it's actually reality and
>>>>>>>>>>>> not some bad dream. I guess, in your case, the psychological scars
>>>>>>>>>>>> remain ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Take Care
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> John D. Panarese
>>>>>>>>>>>> Director
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mac for the Blind
>>>>>>>>>>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>>>>>>>>>>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and
>>>>>>>>>>>> 10.8 Mountain Lion
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Lena Contreras
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <contreras_lena@xxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was listening to a couple podcasts yesterday about the new
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple MacBook and Apple Watch. Last night I had a strange dream.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I dreamt that I was typing away on a laptop who's screen would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not stay open and I had to lay it down flat on the table like an
>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPad. It didn't bother me though because I was listening to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> voice and did not need to see the screen and an angle.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember I was typing and all of a sudden realize that there
>>>>>>>>>>>>> was no voice feedback. When I checked to see if the computer was
>>>>>>>>>>>>> running it had crashed. I somehow knew that it was a Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine and wondered why I did not hear the sound I had
>>>>>>>>>>>>> originally used to tell me when the computer was crashing. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember feeling frustrated and thinking that I should get a Mac.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> I just thought it was very weird to have this dream when my
>>>>>>>>>>>>> MacBook Pro is running well and I have not touched a Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer in about five years. Funny how the brain works.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lena
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone************
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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