[mac4theblind] Re: Strange and startling dream
- From: Scott Granados <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "mac4theblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <mac4theblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:49:07 +0000
OOps I just saw this, I will disengage.
On Mar 23, 2015, at 6:18 PM, John Panarese <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> I'll ask again. Please stop with this topic. As I've said, I now have
> people requesting I close it.
>
>
> Take Care
>
> John D. Panarese
> Director
> Mac for the Blind
> Tel, (631) 724-4479
> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>
> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8 Mountain
> Lion
>
> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>
> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>
>
>
>
>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 6:17 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> I already explained the reason I think the vast majority of IT
>> professionals use Windows. The vast majority of computers in the world run
>> Windows. The vast majority of servers run either Windows or linux. The
>> percentage of computers in the world that run Mac OS is still very tiny.
>>
>> You keep claiming my facts are wrong but that is meaningless. It's a bit
>> insulting for you to tell me I'm out of touch in one message and in another
>> refuse to back up your opinions with any substantiation what so ever. If you
>> are going to keep telling me I'm being stupid, you could at least provide
>> some validation for your opinion.
>> The reason it is unlikely that a 3rd party will develop a screen reader for
>> Mac Os is that it would be difficult to sell a screen reader for an
>> operating system that comes with a free screen reader. I'd have thought that
>> would be obvious.
>>
>> On 03/23/2015 03:42 PM, John Panarese wrote:
>>> No, it is true for all screen readers. At least, with Apple, it is Apple
>>> supporting the screen reader. Development cycle or not, it gets updated.
>>> With Windows, remember that they are third party developers bolting on
>>> their screen reader to Microsoft Windows. They are at the mercy of
>>> Microsoft as far as changes to the OS, and we've seen many times how that
>>> has gone.
>>>
>>> Honestly, based on your assumptions and comments, I think you need to
>>> educate yourself quite bit on how this technology is going. You are making
>>> statemements that I haven't read in years. Again, assuming most IT
>>> professionals these days use only Windows is old news. Things are changing
>>> and for good reason.
>>>
>>> Also, what makes you think another company won't develop a screen reader
>>> for the Mac some day?
>>>
>>>
>>> Take Care
>>>
>>> John D. Panarese
>>> Director
>>> Mac for the Blind
>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>>
>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8
>>> Mountain Lion
>>>
>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>
>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 4:29 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> But pointing out that someone could write another screen reader for Mac OS
>>>> is not a point in favor of voiceover. The fact is that with voiceover, you
>>>> are depending on the good will of Apple Incorporated. You arestuck with
>>>> their release cycle and their willingness to fix bugs. That's not true for
>>>> any of the other screen readers. Even jaws has it's own release cycle
>>>> independent of Microsoft.
>>>>
>>>> On 03/23/2015 02:05 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>>>> And I don’t think just because voiceover is built in that precludes other
>>>>> people from entering the space. I myself wouldn’t want to compete with
>>>>> Apple but that doesn’t mean someone else wouldn’t feel differently.
>>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 2:39 PM, John Panarese <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> No, I think having one company responsible for the OS and the screen
>>>>>> reader is a much better long term solution. NVDA is open source and
>>>>>> open to a community of developers. As I said, it has drawbacks compared
>>>>>> to Window-Eyes and JAWS, and those limitations cannot be compared
>>>>>> necessarily across platforms. In reality, all screen readers conceptual
>>>>>> set out to do the same things, but on the Mac because of the Mac's
>>>>>> stability and security, that alone gives it plenty of advantage over
>>>>>> Windows.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> As for complex keyboard combination, know your screen reader. The same
>>>>>> things can be said for Windows too. With VO, use Numpad Commander,
>>>>>> Keyboard commander or a third party product like, Spark, and your
>>>>>> complexity is simplified tremendously.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The bottom line is I get work done on my Mac with VoiceOver and I don't
>>>>>> fight with the OS. In Windows, half the time is spent dealing with the
>>>>>> OS and Trying to get work done.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Take Care
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John D. Panarese
>>>>>> Director
>>>>>> Mac for the Blind
>>>>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>>>>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>>>>>
>>>>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8
>>>>>> Mountain Lion
>>>>>>
>>>>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>>>>
>>>>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 2:28 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Oh, I forgot to mention ... I'm not sure that being integrated into the
>>>>>>> operating system is a significant advantage. The main advantage
>>>>>>> appears to be that it works right out of the box. There's no
>>>>>>> installation.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But are you prepared to say that voiceover works better than nvda? If
>>>>>>> so, how? I mean, what does voiceover do better than nvda?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Being integrated into the operating system has it's drawbacks. For one,
>>>>>>> voiceover has no competition. For better or worse, we're stuck with
>>>>>>> voiceober and Apple's idea of accessibility. It does take some very
>>>>>>> complicated key combinations to use voiceover. That's probably the
>>>>>>> result of Apple not wanting voiceover to interfere with other operating
>>>>>>> system functions. Some people have been critical of Apple's response
>>>>>>> time when it comes to fixing bugs in voiceover. I've een bugs fixed the
>>>>>>> same day they were reported in orca and nvda.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> To be clear, having voiceover come with an Apple product is a great
>>>>>>> thing. If you're going to buy Apple products anyway, you don't have to
>>>>>>> buy a screen reader. This is a terrific thing. But I'm not sure that
>>>>>>> being integrated into the OS automatically makes voiceover better than
>>>>>>> other screen readers. There is a difference between quality and value.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 03/23/2015 09:42 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>>>>>>> And all are bolt on after thoughts. NVDA, JFW, WE, what ever they are
>>>>>>>> all after thoughts compared to Voice Over which is integrated like any
>>>>>>>> other feature in the OS.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> There is a free screen reader for Windows though. It's called nvda.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 03/23/2015 08:57 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Actually, the Mac is not more expensive when you add in the cost of
>>>>>>>>>> the screen reader. Remember you need to add a grand or so if you’re
>>>>>>>>>> installing JFW on that new machine so add that to the cost. Voice
>>>>>>>>>> Over is included for free so that cost is already covered.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Lena Contreras <contreras_lena@xxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes. My Mac is approaching five years old. When I had my other
>>>>>>>>>>> windows laptops, when they were around four years old they would
>>>>>>>>>>> start acting strangely. They would crash for no reason the speech
>>>>>>>>>>> would stop working and I would have to reboot or other strange
>>>>>>>>>>> things would happen. So far, my Mac is running fine. I know Friends
>>>>>>>>>>> that have eight or nine-year-old Max that are running well but
>>>>>>>>>>> won't support the latest OSX. When somebody's getting a new
>>>>>>>>>>> computer, I recommend a Macintosh. But some of my friends are Fred
>>>>>>>>>>> to make the switch because of having to relearn things. Also the
>>>>>>>>>>> Mac is more expensive and they want to spend less on the computer.
>>>>>>>>>>> And some of my computer geek friends don't like the "control "that
>>>>>>>>>>> Apple has.
>>>>>>>>>>> Lena
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 5:31 AM, Scott Granados
>>>>>>>>>>>> <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 Microsoft has scarred me too. It’s hard to get over that level
>>>>>>>>>>>> of bad design and lack of security.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2015, at 11:47 AM, John Panarese
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, I keep having this nightmare that I still have to
>>>>>>>>>>>>> use Windows to train a few clients, but it's actually reality and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> not some bad dream. I guess, in your case, the psychological
>>>>>>>>>>>>> scars remain ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take Care
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> John D. Panarese
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mac for the Blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and
>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10.8 Mountain Lion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Lena Contreras
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <contreras_lena@xxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was listening to a couple podcasts yesterday about the new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple MacBook and Apple Watch. Last night I had a strange dream.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I dreamt that I was typing away on a laptop who's screen would
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not stay open and I had to lay it down flat on the table like an
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> iPad. It didn't bother me though because I was listening to the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voice and did not need to see the screen and an angle.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember I was typing and all of a sudden realize that there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was no voice feedback. When I checked to see if the computer was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> running it had crashed. I somehow knew that it was a Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> machine and wondered why I did not hear the sound I had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> originally used to tell me when the computer was crashing. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember feeling frustrated and thinking that I should get a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mac. I just thought it was very weird to have this dream when my
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MacBook Pro is running well and I have not touched a Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer in about five years. Funny how the brain works.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lena
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone************
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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