[mac4theblind] Re: Strange and startling dream
- From: Scott Granados <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "mac4theblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <mac4theblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:34:39 +0000
It’s far more difficult than hitting command F5.
Why the hell do I want to carry some slow screen reader around in a thumb drive
when I can just hit command F5?
Also, Dell and other providers of Windows hardware have vastly inferior
business support to Apple. That’s been my experience anyway working in several
operations teams. Dell has left me hanging more times than I’d care to admit
to where Apple has always made me look good and backed me up in my positions.
That’s a company issue though not hardware or software but it still should be
considered.
On Mar 23, 2015, at 5:33 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Well, I can accept that definition of "clunky" as valid.
>
> But I'm not here to defend jaws. I haven't used it in years and I am not
> qualified to dispute your points. I think you're falling into the same old
> trap. If I question one of your assertions, first of all, that doesn't mean I
> think it's untrue. For all I know, jaws might be clunkier than voiceover.
> Secondly, even if I do think one of your assertions is untrue, that doesn't
> mean I think the reverse is true. I'm not advocating for jaws over voiceover.
>
> I would add though, that I think some of what you assert below would be
> disputed vehemently by jaws users. That jaws doesn't have good mouse support
> is probably the most questionable statement. Plus, I don't think it is
> difficult for a blind user to install jaws. I used to install jaws all the
> time. It's slow and it requires a reboot right in the middle (which is kind
> of weird, IMO). But it's not difficult.
>
> On 03/23/2015 02:12 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
>> +1, I like this conversation and unlike some of the lists where there are a
>> lot of trolls I also find this well reasoned and interesting. I also find
>> your viewpoints interesting.
>>
>> Why do I and apparently John as well find jaws clunky. Here are my reasons.
>> First, JFW uses a ton of memory and CPU power. It’s sloppily written
>> so not nearly as tight and responsive as it could be. It’s unstable and
>> tends to crash a lot. It’s very sensitive to changes with the display
>> driver and very difficult to use / install with out sited help on new
>> machines. It doesn’t supply a means to install and provide a talking
>> installation process and it hides me from the way things are physically
>> displayed. Use of the mouse is impractical and again hidden from the jaws
>> user. That’s my take on it, I’d be interested in your counter points.
>> .
>>
>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 3:05 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> I hope you take these questions in the spirit in which they are offered...
>>> I am genuinely curious. Why do you say jaws is "clunky". I am probably not
>>> as fluent as I'd like to be in any screen reader. But it seems to me that
>>> voiceover requires you to press and hold a lot of keys at once -- which I
>>> would think of as "clunky".
>>>
>>> Honestly, this topic fascinates me. The reason is that users of each
>>> screen reader seem absolutely certain that their choise is the best. The
>>> easiest way to tick off some people is to question that opinion. It's very,
>>> very difficult to get concrete data points in favor of one screen reader
>>> compared to others. About the only thing people can seem to agree on is
>>> cost. Jaws is the most expensive. Too expensive? Hard to say. I would tend
>>> to agree with your opinion tha it is indeed "too" expensive. But many jaws
>>> users would strongly disagree. Of course, if you ask them to say
>>> specifically why jaws is worth the money, you don't get meaningful answers
>>> for the most part.
>>>
>>> I've been trying for years to put together a bang for the buck comparison
>>> of the different screen readers. But I have two problems.... I don't know
>>> enough about the different screen readers and second, I can't get
>>> meaningful answers for most of my questions.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 03/23/2015 01:25 PM, John Panarese wrote:
>>>> Well, considering my initial comment was meant as a joke and not to
>>>> start any debates, but everyone is entitled to their opinions. IN my
>>>> opinion, from some twenty years of computer experience, JAWS is clunky and
>>>> too expensive and NVDA has its own limitations compared to the paid screen
>>>> readers. VoiceOver is free and is developed by Apple indent a bolt on
>>>> screen reader. It all comes down to opinions, which is why this list is
>>>> for technical support and such, and not an inditement of any screen reader
>>>> or OS.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Take Care
>>>>
>>>> John D. Panarese
>>>> Director
>>>> Mac for the Blind
>>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>>>
>>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8
>>>> Mountain Lion
>>>>
>>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>>
>>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 2:12 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, do we want to get into a debate over screen readers on this list? I
>>>>> am not as fluent with either nvda or voiceover as I could be but they
>>>>> seem pretty even to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Actually, if I were to rate screen readers, I'd probably pretty much rate
>>>>> them all as a tie. Jaws is the best but it is also the most expensive.
>>>>> Voiceover is the second best and second most expensive. It's not free
>>>>> after all. You have to buy Apple hardware and operating system. Nvda may
>>>>> not be as good as jaws and voiceover but it is totally free. I have never
>>>>> used Window-eyes. I use orca a lot but if there was one screen reader I'd
>>>>> put in last place,it might be orca.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I suppose these comments will be controversial on this list. Please feel
>>>>> free to correct my misconceptions. But please try to be polite.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 03/23/2015 09:42 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>>>>> And all are bolt on after thoughts. NVDA, JFW, WE, what ever they are
>>>>>> all after thoughts compared to Voice Over which is integrated like any
>>>>>> other feature in the OS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is a free screen reader for Windows though. It's called nvda.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 03/23/2015 08:57 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>>>>>>> Actually, the Mac is not more expensive when you add in the cost of
>>>>>>>> the screen reader. Remember you need to add a grand or so if you’re
>>>>>>>> installing JFW on that new machine so add that to the cost. Voice
>>>>>>>> Over is included for free so that cost is already covered.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Lena Contreras <contreras_lena@xxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes. My Mac is approaching five years old. When I had my other
>>>>>>>>> windows laptops, when they were around four years old they would
>>>>>>>>> start acting strangely. They would crash for no reason the speech
>>>>>>>>> would stop working and I would have to reboot or other strange things
>>>>>>>>> would happen. So far, my Mac is running fine. I know Friends that
>>>>>>>>> have eight or nine-year-old Max that are running well but won't
>>>>>>>>> support the latest OSX. When somebody's getting a new computer, I
>>>>>>>>> recommend a Macintosh. But some of my friends are Fred to make the
>>>>>>>>> switch because of having to relearn things. Also the Mac is more
>>>>>>>>> expensive and they want to spend less on the computer. And some of my
>>>>>>>>> computer geek friends don't like the "control "that Apple has.
>>>>>>>>> Lena
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 5:31 AM, Scott Granados <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> +1 Microsoft has scarred me too. It’s hard to get over that level
>>>>>>>>>> of bad design and lack of security.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2015, at 11:47 AM, John Panarese
>>>>>>>>>>> <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, I keep having this nightmare that I still have to
>>>>>>>>>>> use Windows to train a few clients, but it's actually reality and
>>>>>>>>>>> not some bad dream. I guess, in your case, the psychological scars
>>>>>>>>>>> remain ...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Take Care
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> John D. Panarese
>>>>>>>>>>> Director
>>>>>>>>>>> Mac for the Blind
>>>>>>>>>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>>>>>>>>>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8
>>>>>>>>>>> Mountain Lion
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Lena Contreras
>>>>>>>>>>>> <contreras_lena@xxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was listening to a couple podcasts yesterday about the new Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>> MacBook and Apple Watch. Last night I had a strange dream. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> dreamt that I was typing away on a laptop who's screen would not
>>>>>>>>>>>> stay open and I had to lay it down flat on the table like an iPad.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It didn't bother me though because I was listening to the voice
>>>>>>>>>>>> and did not need to see the screen and an angle.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember I was typing and all of a sudden realize that there was
>>>>>>>>>>>> no voice feedback. When I checked to see if the computer was
>>>>>>>>>>>> running it had crashed. I somehow knew that it was a Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>> machine and wondered why I did not hear the sound I had originally
>>>>>>>>>>>> used to tell me when the computer was crashing. I remember feeling
>>>>>>>>>>>> frustrated and thinking that I should get a Mac. I just thought it
>>>>>>>>>>>> was very weird to have this dream when my MacBook Pro is running
>>>>>>>>>>>> well and I have not touched a Windows computer in about five
>>>>>>>>>>>> years. Funny how the brain works.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lena
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone************
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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