[mac4theblind] Re: Strange and startling dream
- From: Scott Granados <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: "mac4theblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <mac4theblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 12:38:02 +0000
I’d say this is a good point in general but I know that voice over for Apple
means more than just the educational market. There is an underlying current
with in the company of accessibility for all to their products. Remember it’s
not just computers. It’s phones, computers, TV set top boxes, watches, and on
and on. You also have the lower cost of ownership of software packages than
Windows on Apple platforms which is another plus for government and educational
institutions.
Apple has had a long history of being in the schools, going back to the
Apple 2E / 2+ so I don’t think this is going to change.
On Mar 23, 2015, at 5:49 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> Well, you're kind of using circular logic here. Yes, federal regulations
> require that any institution that receives funding from the federal
> government which would include almost all schools, colleges, and
> universities, have screen readers on their computers. Therefore, Apple
> wouldn't be able to drop support for voiceover if they wanted to keep selling
> computers to schools. However, if a 3rd party ever did develop a screen
> reader for the Mac, then they could.
>
> In fact, Apple really could just forget about the educational market. It does
> seem unlikely. But after all, with nvda being free, there is no longer any
> reason for schools to buy Macs for the free screen reader. Apple could reason
> that there's no point in continueing development of voiceover because they
> are going to get undercut by nvda anyway. It's not totally unrealistic. When
> Oracle bought Sun Microsystems, they just dumped development of orca. So
> Oracle ompletely abandned the idea of ever breaking into the educational
> desktop market. You may be thinking that was nothing anyway but linux
> workstations are fairly common in schools in Europe. For all practical
> purposes, Oracle made that impossible in the USA.
>
>
>
> On 03/23/2015 02:30 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
>> I think there may be legislative reasons that Apple can not drop VoiceOver
>> development, as long as there isn’t a viable 3rd party solution.
>>
>> Government sales being 1, Use in schools being another.
>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 3:28 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>>> I already said I'm not as fluent in any screen reader as I'd like to be.
>>> Here's your chance to educate me. Can you give me an example of how the
>>> add-on packages help a user deal with the complex key combinations that
>>> voiceover requires? It seems to me that requiring an add-on diminishes your
>>> point about the value of voiceover being integrated into the operating
>>> system.
>>>
>>> Can you explain why you think having the screen reader integrated into the
>>> OS is an advantage? It seems to me that it's a point in favor of nvda that
>>> it is open source. First, theoretically, you can fix it yourself if you are
>>> so inclined. Second, it doesn't depend on the good will of a corporation.
>>> Apple could drop support for voiceover at any time. I am not saying that is
>>> likely. It's just that it seems to me that being open source would be a
>>> fairly minor point in favor of nvda, not a point against it.
>>>
>>> On 03/23/2015 01:39 PM, John Panarese wrote:
>>>> No, I think having one company responsible for the OS and the screen
>>>> reader is a much better long term solution. NVDA is open source and open
>>>> to a community of developers. As I said, it has drawbacks compared to
>>>> Window-Eyes and JAWS, and those limitations cannot be compared necessarily
>>>> across platforms. In reality, all screen readers conceptual set out to do
>>>> the same things, but on the Mac because of the Mac's stability and
>>>> security, that alone gives it plenty of advantage over Windows.
>>>>
>>>> As for complex keyboard combination, know your screen reader. The same
>>>> things can be said for Windows too. With VO, use Numpad Commander,
>>>> Keyboard commander or a third party product like, Spark, and your
>>>> complexity is simplified tremendously.
>>>>
>>>> The bottom line is I get work done on my Mac with VoiceOver and I don't
>>>> fight with the OS. In Windows, half the time is spent dealing with the OS
>>>> and Trying to get work done.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Take Care
>>>>
>>>> John D. Panarese
>>>> Director
>>>> Mac for the Blind
>>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>>>
>>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8
>>>> Mountain Lion
>>>>
>>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>>
>>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 2:28 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Oh, I forgot to mention ... I'm not sure that being integrated into the
>>>>> operating system is a significant advantage. The main advantage appears
>>>>> to be that it works right out of the box. There's no installation.
>>>>>
>>>>> But are you prepared to say that voiceover works better than nvda? If so,
>>>>> how? I mean, what does voiceover do better than nvda?
>>>>>
>>>>> Being integrated into the operating system has it's drawbacks. For one,
>>>>> voiceover has no competition. For better or worse, we're stuck with
>>>>> voiceober and Apple's idea of accessibility. It does take some very
>>>>> complicated key combinations to use voiceover. That's probably the result
>>>>> of Apple not wanting voiceover to interfere with other operating system
>>>>> functions. Some people have been critical of Apple's response time when
>>>>> it comes to fixing bugs in voiceover. I've een bugs fixed the same day
>>>>> they were reported in orca and nvda.
>>>>>
>>>>> To be clear, having voiceover come with an Apple product is a great
>>>>> thing. If you're going to buy Apple products anyway, you don't have to
>>>>> buy a screen reader. This is a terrific thing. But I'm not sure that
>>>>> being integrated into the OS automatically makes voiceover better than
>>>>> other screen readers. There is a difference between quality and value.
>>>>>
>>>>> On 03/23/2015 09:42 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>>>>> And all are bolt on after thoughts. NVDA, JFW, WE, what ever they are
>>>>>> all after thoughts compared to Voice Over which is integrated like any
>>>>>> other feature in the OS.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is a free screen reader for Windows though. It's called nvda.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 03/23/2015 08:57 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>>>>>>> Actually, the Mac is not more expensive when you add in the cost of
>>>>>>>> the screen reader. Remember you need to add a grand or so if you’re
>>>>>>>> installing JFW on that new machine so add that to the cost. Voice
>>>>>>>> Over is included for free so that cost is already covered.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Lena Contreras <contreras_lena@xxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Yes. My Mac is approaching five years old. When I had my other
>>>>>>>>> windows laptops, when they were around four years old they would
>>>>>>>>> start acting strangely. They would crash for no reason the speech
>>>>>>>>> would stop working and I would have to reboot or other strange things
>>>>>>>>> would happen. So far, my Mac is running fine. I know Friends that
>>>>>>>>> have eight or nine-year-old Max that are running well but won't
>>>>>>>>> support the latest OSX. When somebody's getting a new computer, I
>>>>>>>>> recommend a Macintosh. But some of my friends are Fred to make the
>>>>>>>>> switch because of having to relearn things. Also the Mac is more
>>>>>>>>> expensive and they want to spend less on the computer. And some of my
>>>>>>>>> computer geek friends don't like the "control "that Apple has.
>>>>>>>>> Lena
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 5:31 AM, Scott Granados <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> +1 Microsoft has scarred me too. It’s hard to get over that level
>>>>>>>>>> of bad design and lack of security.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2015, at 11:47 AM, John Panarese
>>>>>>>>>>> <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, I keep having this nightmare that I still have to
>>>>>>>>>>> use Windows to train a few clients, but it's actually reality and
>>>>>>>>>>> not some bad dream. I guess, in your case, the psychological scars
>>>>>>>>>>> remain ...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Take Care
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> John D. Panarese
>>>>>>>>>>> Director
>>>>>>>>>>> Mac for the Blind
>>>>>>>>>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>>>>>>>>>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8
>>>>>>>>>>> Mountain Lion
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Lena Contreras
>>>>>>>>>>>> <contreras_lena@xxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> I was listening to a couple podcasts yesterday about the new Apple
>>>>>>>>>>>> MacBook and Apple Watch. Last night I had a strange dream. I
>>>>>>>>>>>> dreamt that I was typing away on a laptop who's screen would not
>>>>>>>>>>>> stay open and I had to lay it down flat on the table like an iPad.
>>>>>>>>>>>> It didn't bother me though because I was listening to the voice
>>>>>>>>>>>> and did not need to see the screen and an angle.
>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember I was typing and all of a sudden realize that there was
>>>>>>>>>>>> no voice feedback. When I checked to see if the computer was
>>>>>>>>>>>> running it had crashed. I somehow knew that it was a Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>> machine and wondered why I did not hear the sound I had originally
>>>>>>>>>>>> used to tell me when the computer was crashing. I remember feeling
>>>>>>>>>>>> frustrated and thinking that I should get a Mac. I just thought it
>>>>>>>>>>>> was very weird to have this dream when my MacBook Pro is running
>>>>>>>>>>>> well and I have not touched a Windows computer in about five
>>>>>>>>>>>> years. Funny how the brain works.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lena
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone************
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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