[mac4theblind] Re: Strange and startling dream
- From: Rory <rory820@xxxxxxxxx>
- To: "mac4theblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx" <mac4theblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 20:54:10 -0400
I am sorry too, but I sure do learn a lot from reading Scott's and John's posts!
Regards,
Rory
Sent from my iPhone
> On Mar 24, 2015, at 8:49 AM, Scott Granados <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> OOps I just saw this, I will disengage.
>
>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 6:18 PM, John Panarese <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> I'll ask again. Please stop with this topic. As I've said, I now have
>> people requesting I close it.
>>
>>
>> Take Care
>>
>> John D. Panarese
>> Director
>> Mac for the Blind
>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>
>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8 Mountain
>> Lion
>>
>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>
>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 6:17 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> I already explained the reason I think the vast majority of IT
>>> professionals use Windows. The vast majority of computers in the world run
>>> Windows. The vast majority of servers run either Windows or linux. The
>>> percentage of computers in the world that run Mac OS is still very tiny.
>>>
>>> You keep claiming my facts are wrong but that is meaningless. It's a bit
>>> insulting for you to tell me I'm out of touch in one message and in another
>>> refuse to back up your opinions with any substantiation what so ever. If
>>> you are going to keep telling me I'm being stupid, you could at least
>>> provide some validation for your opinion.
>>> The reason it is unlikely that a 3rd party will develop a screen reader for
>>> Mac Os is that it would be difficult to sell a screen reader for an
>>> operating system that comes with a free screen reader. I'd have thought
>>> that would be obvious.
>>>
>>>> On 03/23/2015 03:42 PM, John Panarese wrote:
>>>> No, it is true for all screen readers. At least, with Apple, it is Apple
>>>> supporting the screen reader. Development cycle or not, it gets updated.
>>>> With Windows, remember that they are third party developers bolting on
>>>> their screen reader to Microsoft Windows. They are at the mercy of
>>>> Microsoft as far as changes to the OS, and we've seen many times how that
>>>> has gone.
>>>>
>>>> Honestly, based on your assumptions and comments, I think you need to
>>>> educate yourself quite bit on how this technology is going. You are
>>>> making statemements that I haven't read in years. Again, assuming most IT
>>>> professionals these days use only Windows is old news. Things are
>>>> changing and for good reason.
>>>>
>>>> Also, what makes you think another company won't develop a screen reader
>>>> for the Mac some day?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Take Care
>>>>
>>>> John D. Panarese
>>>> Director
>>>> Mac for the Blind
>>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>>>
>>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8
>>>> Mountain Lion
>>>>
>>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>>
>>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 4:29 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> But pointing out that someone could write another screen reader for Mac
>>>>> OS is not a point in favor of voiceover. The fact is that with voiceover,
>>>>> you are depending on the good will of Apple Incorporated. You arestuck
>>>>> with their release cycle and their willingness to fix bugs. That's not
>>>>> true for any of the other screen readers. Even jaws has it's own release
>>>>> cycle independent of Microsoft.
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 03/23/2015 02:05 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>>>>> And I don’t think just because voiceover is built in that precludes
>>>>>> other people from entering the space. I myself wouldn’t want to compete
>>>>>> with Apple but that doesn’t mean someone else wouldn’t feel differently.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 2:39 PM, John Panarese <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No, I think having one company responsible for the OS and the screen
>>>>>>> reader is a much better long term solution. NVDA is open source and
>>>>>>> open to a community of developers. As I said, it has drawbacks
>>>>>>> compared to Window-Eyes and JAWS, and those limitations cannot be
>>>>>>> compared necessarily across platforms. In reality, all screen readers
>>>>>>> conceptual set out to do the same things, but on the Mac because of the
>>>>>>> Mac's stability and security, that alone gives it plenty of advantage
>>>>>>> over Windows.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As for complex keyboard combination, know your screen reader. The same
>>>>>>> things can be said for Windows too. With VO, use Numpad Commander,
>>>>>>> Keyboard commander or a third party product like, Spark, and your
>>>>>>> complexity is simplified tremendously.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The bottom line is I get work done on my Mac with VoiceOver and I don't
>>>>>>> fight with the OS. In Windows, half the time is spent dealing with the
>>>>>>> OS and Trying to get work done.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Take Care
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John D. Panarese
>>>>>>> Director
>>>>>>> Mac for the Blind
>>>>>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>>>>>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8
>>>>>>> Mountain Lion
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 2:28 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Oh, I forgot to mention ... I'm not sure that being integrated into
>>>>>>>> the operating system is a significant advantage. The main advantage
>>>>>>>> appears to be that it works right out of the box. There's no
>>>>>>>> installation.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But are you prepared to say that voiceover works better than nvda? If
>>>>>>>> so, how? I mean, what does voiceover do better than nvda?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Being integrated into the operating system has it's drawbacks. For
>>>>>>>> one, voiceover has no competition. For better or worse, we're stuck
>>>>>>>> with voiceober and Apple's idea of accessibility. It does take some
>>>>>>>> very complicated key combinations to use voiceover. That's probably
>>>>>>>> the result of Apple not wanting voiceover to interfere with other
>>>>>>>> operating system functions. Some people have been critical of Apple's
>>>>>>>> response time when it comes to fixing bugs in voiceover. I've een bugs
>>>>>>>> fixed the same day they were reported in orca and nvda.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> To be clear, having voiceover come with an Apple product is a great
>>>>>>>> thing. If you're going to buy Apple products anyway, you don't have to
>>>>>>>> buy a screen reader. This is a terrific thing. But I'm not sure that
>>>>>>>> being integrated into the OS automatically makes voiceover better than
>>>>>>>> other screen readers. There is a difference between quality and value.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On 03/23/2015 09:42 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>>>>>>>> And all are bolt on after thoughts. NVDA, JFW, WE, what ever they
>>>>>>>>> are all after thoughts compared to Voice Over which is integrated
>>>>>>>>> like any other feature in the OS.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> There is a free screen reader for Windows though. It's called nvda.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 03/23/2015 08:57 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, the Mac is not more expensive when you add in the cost of
>>>>>>>>>>> the screen reader. Remember you need to add a grand or so if
>>>>>>>>>>> you’re installing JFW on that new machine so add that to the cost.
>>>>>>>>>>> Voice Over is included for free so that cost is already covered.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Lena Contreras
>>>>>>>>>>>> <contreras_lena@xxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes. My Mac is approaching five years old. When I had my other
>>>>>>>>>>>> windows laptops, when they were around four years old they would
>>>>>>>>>>>> start acting strangely. They would crash for no reason the speech
>>>>>>>>>>>> would stop working and I would have to reboot or other strange
>>>>>>>>>>>> things would happen. So far, my Mac is running fine. I know
>>>>>>>>>>>> Friends that have eight or nine-year-old Max that are running well
>>>>>>>>>>>> but won't support the latest OSX. When somebody's getting a new
>>>>>>>>>>>> computer, I recommend a Macintosh. But some of my friends are Fred
>>>>>>>>>>>> to make the switch because of having to relearn things. Also the
>>>>>>>>>>>> Mac is more expensive and they want to spend less on the computer.
>>>>>>>>>>>> And some of my computer geek friends don't like the "control "that
>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple has.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Lena
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 5:31 AM, Scott Granados
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 Microsoft has scarred me too. It’s hard to get over that
>>>>>>>>>>>>> level of bad design and lack of security.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2015, at 11:47 AM, John Panarese
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, I keep having this nightmare that I still have to
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> use Windows to train a few clients, but it's actually reality
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and not some bad dream. I guess, in your case, the psychological
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> scars remain ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take Care
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John D. Panarese
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mac for the Blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10.8 Mountain Lion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Lena Contreras
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <contreras_lena@xxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was listening to a couple podcasts yesterday about the new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple MacBook and Apple Watch. Last night I had a strange
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dream. I dreamt that I was typing away on a laptop who's screen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would not stay open and I had to lay it down flat on the table
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> like an iPad. It didn't bother me though because I was
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> listening to the voice and did not need to see the screen and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> an angle.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember I was typing and all of a sudden realize that there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was no voice feedback. When I checked to see if the computer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was running it had crashed. I somehow knew that it was a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows machine and wondered why I did not hear the sound I had
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> originally used to tell me when the computer was crashing. I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remember feeling frustrated and thinking that I should get a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mac. I just thought it was very weird to have this dream when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my MacBook Pro is running well and I have not touched a Windows
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer in about five years. Funny how the brain works.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lena
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone************
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>> ************
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