[mac4theblind] Re: Strange and startling dream
- From: John Panarese <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- To: mac4theblind@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
- Date: Tue, 24 Mar 2015 20:57:32 -0400
Well, the individual chose to leave the list on his own. Maybe, he'll
contact Scott privately to ask questions. I doubt it though. I honestly don't
think that was his intentions, as a few other of you have indicated to me. as
well.
Take Care
John D. Panarese
Director
Mac for the Blind
Tel, (631) 724-4479
Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8 Mountain
Lion
AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
> On Mar 24, 2015, at 8:54 PM, Rory <rory820@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>
> I am sorry too, but I sure do learn a lot from reading Scott's and John's
> posts!
> Regards,
> Rory
>
>
>
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
>> On Mar 24, 2015, at 8:49 AM, Scott Granados <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>
>> OOps I just saw this, I will disengage.
>>
>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 6:18 PM, John Panarese <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>
>>> I'll ask again. Please stop with this topic. As I've said, I now have
>>> people requesting I close it.
>>>
>>>
>>> Take Care
>>>
>>> John D. Panarese
>>> Director
>>> Mac for the Blind
>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>>
>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8
>>> Mountain Lion
>>>
>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>
>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 6:17 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I already explained the reason I think the vast majority of IT
>>>> professionals use Windows. The vast majority of computers in the world run
>>>> Windows. The vast majority of servers run either Windows or linux. The
>>>> percentage of computers in the world that run Mac OS is still very tiny.
>>>>
>>>> You keep claiming my facts are wrong but that is meaningless. It's a bit
>>>> insulting for you to tell me I'm out of touch in one message and in
>>>> another refuse to back up your opinions with any substantiation what so
>>>> ever. If you are going to keep telling me I'm being stupid, you could at
>>>> least provide some validation for your opinion.
>>>> The reason it is unlikely that a 3rd party will develop a screen reader
>>>> for Mac Os is that it would be difficult to sell a screen reader for an
>>>> operating system that comes with a free screen reader. I'd have thought
>>>> that would be obvious.
>>>>
>>>>> On 03/23/2015 03:42 PM, John Panarese wrote:
>>>>> No, it is true for all screen readers. At least, with Apple, it is Apple
>>>>> supporting the screen reader. Development cycle or not, it gets updated.
>>>>> With Windows, remember that they are third party developers bolting on
>>>>> their screen reader to Microsoft Windows. They are at the mercy of
>>>>> Microsoft as far as changes to the OS, and we've seen many times how that
>>>>> has gone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Honestly, based on your assumptions and comments, I think you need to
>>>>> educate yourself quite bit on how this technology is going. You are
>>>>> making statemements that I haven't read in years. Again, assuming most IT
>>>>> professionals these days use only Windows is old news. Things are
>>>>> changing and for good reason.
>>>>>
>>>>> Also, what makes you think another company won't develop a screen reader
>>>>> for the Mac some day?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Take Care
>>>>>
>>>>> John D. Panarese
>>>>> Director
>>>>> Mac for the Blind
>>>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>>>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>>>>
>>>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8
>>>>> Mountain Lion
>>>>>
>>>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>>>
>>>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 4:29 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But pointing out that someone could write another screen reader for Mac
>>>>>> OS is not a point in favor of voiceover. The fact is that with
>>>>>> voiceover, you are depending on the good will of Apple Incorporated. You
>>>>>> arestuck with their release cycle and their willingness to fix bugs.
>>>>>> That's not true for any of the other screen readers. Even jaws has it's
>>>>>> own release cycle independent of Microsoft.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On 03/23/2015 02:05 PM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>>>>>> And I don’t think just because voiceover is built in that precludes
>>>>>>> other people from entering the space. I myself wouldn’t want to
>>>>>>> compete with Apple but that doesn’t mean someone else wouldn’t feel
>>>>>>> differently.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 2:39 PM, John Panarese <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> No, I think having one company responsible for the OS and the screen
>>>>>>>> reader is a much better long term solution. NVDA is open source and
>>>>>>>> open to a community of developers. As I said, it has drawbacks
>>>>>>>> compared to Window-Eyes and JAWS, and those limitations cannot be
>>>>>>>> compared necessarily across platforms. In reality, all screen readers
>>>>>>>> conceptual set out to do the same things, but on the Mac because of
>>>>>>>> the Mac's stability and security, that alone gives it plenty of
>>>>>>>> advantage over Windows.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> As for complex keyboard combination, know your screen reader. The
>>>>>>>> same things can be said for Windows too. With VO, use Numpad
>>>>>>>> Commander, Keyboard commander or a third party product like, Spark,
>>>>>>>> and your complexity is simplified tremendously.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The bottom line is I get work done on my Mac with VoiceOver and I
>>>>>>>> don't fight with the OS. In Windows, half the time is spent dealing
>>>>>>>> with the OS and Trying to get work done.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Take Care
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John D. Panarese
>>>>>>>> Director
>>>>>>>> Mac for the Blind
>>>>>>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>>>>>>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and 10.8
>>>>>>>> Mountain Lion
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 2:28 PM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Oh, I forgot to mention ... I'm not sure that being integrated into
>>>>>>>>> the operating system is a significant advantage. The main advantage
>>>>>>>>> appears to be that it works right out of the box. There's no
>>>>>>>>> installation.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But are you prepared to say that voiceover works better than nvda? If
>>>>>>>>> so, how? I mean, what does voiceover do better than nvda?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Being integrated into the operating system has it's drawbacks. For
>>>>>>>>> one, voiceover has no competition. For better or worse, we're stuck
>>>>>>>>> with voiceober and Apple's idea of accessibility. It does take some
>>>>>>>>> very complicated key combinations to use voiceover. That's probably
>>>>>>>>> the result of Apple not wanting voiceover to interfere with other
>>>>>>>>> operating system functions. Some people have been critical of Apple's
>>>>>>>>> response time when it comes to fixing bugs in voiceover. I've een
>>>>>>>>> bugs fixed the same day they were reported in orca and nvda.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> To be clear, having voiceover come with an Apple product is a great
>>>>>>>>> thing. If you're going to buy Apple products anyway, you don't have
>>>>>>>>> to buy a screen reader. This is a terrific thing. But I'm not sure
>>>>>>>>> that being integrated into the OS automatically makes voiceover
>>>>>>>>> better than other screen readers. There is a difference between
>>>>>>>>> quality and value.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On 03/23/2015 09:42 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> And all are bolt on after thoughts. NVDA, JFW, WE, what ever they
>>>>>>>>>> are all after thoughts compared to Voice Over which is integrated
>>>>>>>>>> like any other feature in the OS.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 10:26 AM, Todor Fassl <fassl.tod@xxxxxxxxx>
>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> There is a free screen reader for Windows though. It's called nvda.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 03/23/2015 08:57 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> Actually, the Mac is not more expensive when you add in the cost
>>>>>>>>>>>> of the screen reader. Remember you need to add a grand or so if
>>>>>>>>>>>> you’re installing JFW on that new machine so add that to the cost.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Voice Over is included for free so that cost is already covered.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 9:20 AM, Lena Contreras
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <contreras_lena@xxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yes. My Mac is approaching five years old. When I had my other
>>>>>>>>>>>>> windows laptops, when they were around four years old they would
>>>>>>>>>>>>> start acting strangely. They would crash for no reason the speech
>>>>>>>>>>>>> would stop working and I would have to reboot or other strange
>>>>>>>>>>>>> things would happen. So far, my Mac is running fine. I know
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Friends that have eight or nine-year-old Max that are running
>>>>>>>>>>>>> well but won't support the latest OSX. When somebody's getting a
>>>>>>>>>>>>> new computer, I recommend a Macintosh. But some of my friends are
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fred to make the switch because of having to relearn things. Also
>>>>>>>>>>>>> the Mac is more expensive and they want to spend less on the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> computer. And some of my computer geek friends don't like the
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "control "that Apple has.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lena
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPad
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 23, 2015, at 5:31 AM, Scott Granados
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <scott@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> +1 Microsoft has scarred me too. It’s hard to get over that
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> level of bad design and lack of security.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2015, at 11:47 AM, John Panarese
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unfortunately, I keep having this nightmare that I still have
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to use Windows to train a few clients, but it's actually
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reality and not some bad dream. I guess, in your case, the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> psychological scars remain ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Take Care
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> John D. Panarese
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Director
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mac for the Blind
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tel, (631) 724-4479
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Email, john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL FOR MAC OSX 10.7 LION and
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 10.8 Mountain Lion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mar 22, 2015, at 10:30 AM, Lena Contreras
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> <contreras_lena@xxxxxx> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I was listening to a couple podcasts yesterday about the new
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Apple MacBook and Apple Watch. Last night I had a strange
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> dream. I dreamt that I was typing away on a laptop who's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> screen would not stay open and I had to lay it down flat on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the table like an iPad. It didn't bother me though because I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was listening to the voice and did not need to see the screen
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and an angle.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember I was typing and all of a sudden realize that there
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was no voice feedback. When I checked to see if the computer
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> was running it had crashed. I somehow knew that it was a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows machine and wondered why I did not hear the sound I
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> had originally used to tell me when the computer was crashing.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I remember feeling frustrated and thinking that I should get a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Mac. I just thought it was very weird to have this dream when
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> my MacBook Pro is running well and I have not touched a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Windows computer in about five years. Funny how the brain
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> works.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Lena
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent from my iPhone************
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ************
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>> john@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>>>>>>> ************
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>>> ************
>>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>>> ************
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>>> ************
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>>> ************
>>>>>>>>>
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>>>>>>>> ************
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
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>>>>> ************
>>>>>
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> ************
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